1 Samuel 15:3 - God orders people to kill babies

[Copper Scroll]

What position does the created have in questioniong the commandments of the Creator?

Doesn't God not expect obedience from His people?

So if God told you to kill your next door neighbors, including their kids and their dog, and you did it (obediently), we would be wrong to lock you up for life?

Nope.

Why not--if you only did what God expected you to do... without questioning it? Would you do it?

You didn't ask if I would do it or not. You asked if you would be wrong for locking me up for doing it. According to the laws of the land you would not be wrong for locking me up.

Actually, you see there, I did ask the second time around.... Would you? Further, do you assume that every psychopath who blames his atrocities on God is right or wrong?

[ted]

This is pretty silly.

Of course someone who claims "God made me do it" in regards to killing a family should be locked up. You are playing a silly game with words and either know the truth or simply want to have a little fun here.

Sorry, in case you haven't noticed, not many are playing.

t.

[Guest yod]

I've only gone through the first five pages of this thread but no one had the answer to this dilemna at that point so I'm skipping ahead. There is no contradiction in wiping out a generation of people and "love thine enemy"

The Bible is speaking of hebraic concepts and we are reading it with Greek eyes. Two (apparently) opposing concepts can exist at the same time.

First = God is righteous and just

Every death ordered by God was either;

1. Military strategy - A nation/government is the sum total of its people. Military campaigns were only fought against nations who wanted to fight them. Those people were enemies before Israel destroyed them. Adonai never ordered the wanton execution of any individual except as part of a military campaign...and that was done to protect and secure His chosen people. This is really the only debate. Whom has He chosen and why?

He has judged many nations. When He someday judges America the righteous will also be affected. That's why we should learn the lessons of Katrina....but I'm not holding my breath.

2. Justice - Applies evenly to every individual based on their knowledge. He can be more severe on those of the tribes than to strangers. Outsiders are given more leeway because they are ignorant of the Law.

He judged Simeon and Levi unworthy of Jacob's birthright for their cruelty in wiping out an entire village even though what they did seems appropriate to me.

(the literal interpretation)

In the case of the Amelekites and other-ites, those were all military campaigns. The misunderstanding is the exact same error which is continually misapplied by pacifists to Jesus.

This is war between beasts (nations) and it is to the death in some cases. God was ordering the nation of Amelek to be destroyed. They had been judged wanting...and were given plenty of time to repent. Every single person was defiled for Him to have ordered them destroyed instead of just the military (men) and this is why different "judgements" came on different nations.

Btw, NO WHERE does God condone rape. There is a law concerning how women taken as spoil are treated and Israel may have been the only humane society in history to that regard. This happened in a time much different than today. Trying to use carnal logic on the ancient world ignores the context making it impossible to interpret events of the Bible correctly.

(spiritual interpretation)

It is given to us as a picture of how we are to deal ruthlessly and without hesitation when it comes to sin in "our" battleground.

Second (apparent contradictory) position = God isn't fair

As individuals, we have a different law than a government. If we would all obey these rules, there would be no wars but unfortunately there are those who don't care to submit to God. As individuals we are to forgive other individuals and bless them as much as it depends on us. A government is not given the mandate to "love their enemies"

"Fair" is best decided by the Judge who knows all the facts and will deal justly.

We are talking about events maybe 3 or 4 thousand years ago? I'm sure there was a lot more to it for God to have singled out only a few in all the tribes of the Earth.

[ted]

And you didn't answer the man's question because you know you're stumped..

Nice assumption.

How would I know or not? Well, think about it for a minute. Do you think things have changed since the time of Saul? Does God work in the same manner as He did in those days?

Tell me, in the past, say, 500 years or so, can you present an instance where God directly spoke to someone concerning wiping out entire nations, including infants?

We are in an age right now where we have a mediator between us and God, and that mediator is Jesus, and it is through Him, we have our direction.

It is through Jesus' eye and guidance that we are to conduct our affairs.

Did Jesus not warn us that whoever shall harm a child will be punished?

Are you implying that God will still, now, tell someone to kill a child for the sins of others?

Think hard.

Yes, I would be brave enough to say that one who kills a child and then claims that God told him to do it should be locked up, because something just ain't right about it.

God told Saul to kill unarmed babies in their mothers hands. What is the difference.

The difference now, my friend, is that God deals with us in different ways now. Something big happened some 2,000 years ago, and it is through Jesus that God deals with us now.

Have you not noticed a change between the time of Saul and the present?

How would you KNOW God didn't tell him that, since He's done it in the past?

Well, I guess I wouldn't know for sure, but I'm not taking the chance, either.

If you are comfortable with a muderer living free next door to you because he claims God told him to kill a child, then make sure you show up at his trial and stand up for him.

Put your words into action, my friend, and invite him in to babysit your kids.

Me? I'll be out front of the court house with a poster, doing my part to make sure he never sees the light of day again.

Again, this is silly.

Have a great day.

t.

[Copper Scroll]

This is pretty silly.

Of course someone who claims "God made me do it" in regards to killing a family should be locked up. You are playing a silly game with words and either know the truth or simply want to have a little fun here.

Sorry, in case you haven't noticed, not many are playing.

t.

It's not a game; it's not a trap. It is a very simple question that any sane person would answer: "I would not kill anyone (let alone a little kid) because I thought God told me to do it. If I heard such a voice, I would assume that I was going mad and seek help."

But for some reason, those same folks you are claiming refuse to play my "game" (mainly Ovedya) are afraid to answer this question because it would appear to contradict at least some parts of the OT and prior statements they made--like how we shouldn't question God's judgements and commands.

The question would eventually arise: How can I tell the difference between God's voice and psychosis? Granted God exists and does interact with (speak to) people, we would need some kind of (somewhat) objective standard for differentiating God's voice from madness. I would propose this standard to be the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, which (to my mind) would forbid mass murder.

There--the "game" is exposed.

[Copper Scroll]

I've only gone through the first five pages of this thread but no one had the answer to this dilemna at that point so I'm skipping ahead.

Of course, those first five pages include the title: God orders people to kill babies, which you do not address in your post. What does the murder of little babies have to do with military strategy or justice/righteousness?

[Copper Scroll]

And you didn't answer the man's question because you know you're stumped..

Nice assumption.

How would I know or not? Well, think about it for a minute. Do you think things have changed since the time of Saul? Does God work in the same manner as He did in those days?

Tell me, in the past, say, 500 years or so, can you present an instance where God directly spoke to someone concerning wiping out entire nations, including infants?

We are in an age right now where we have a mediator between us and God, and that mediator is Jesus, and it is through Him, we have our direction.

It is through Jesus' eye and guidance that we are to conduct our affairs.

Did Jesus not warn us that whoever shall harm a child will be punished?

Are you implying that God will still, now, tell someone to kill a child for the sins of others?

Think hard.

Yes, I would be brave enough to say that one who kills a child and then claims that God told him to do it should be locked up, because something just ain't right about it.

Are you saying that God changed between the OT and NT? You say the "times" have changed and that the way God interacts with us has changed... so God has changed--right?

Well, I guess I wouldn't know for sure, but I'm not taking the chance, either.

If you are comfortable with a muderer living free next door to you because he claims God told him to kill a child, then make sure you show up at his trial and stand up for him.

Put your words into action, my friend, and invite him in to babysit your kids.

Me? I'll be out front of the court house with a poster, doing my part to make sure he never sees the light of day again.

Again, this is silly.

I don't see the "silly" in it. I think it's a very important question. Most Christian theologians don't think God changes. If God asked someone to commit what we consider a war crime thousands of years ago, God might ask someone to do it today. The idea that this happens in the OT gives an excuse to anyone (like Muslim extremists) who would try to do it now. I think it's an extremely important issue.

Edited February 26, 2006 by Copper Scroll

[gypc]

God never changes. Mal 3:6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

Also, it's his deal man........it's his story...........I'm just happy I can be a part of it.

Rom 9:19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Jesus said to us to love our enemies...........I;m sure he had his purpose for killing women and children. What we have to remember is, what ever God does, he does with pure motives.

[ted]

I didn't mean God changes or has changed.

I meant that His ways of dealing with us have changed a bit. The way He interacts with us, in other words.

Big difference.

Several Popes have done no less. We have no more way of "proving" they were right or wrong than we do Samuel. You obviously haven't thought this through. American "Christians" committed genocide against the native Americans for decades, sometimes "In the Name of Jesus."

Several popes?

Ok then....

Look, because they say it was done in the "Name of Jesus" you believe that is was done with God's Blessings?

You bring up the actions of several popes to justify your position? Well, you trust in the popes and in the the "Christians" that wiped out the Native American populations, and I'll stick with the assumption that God did not tell them to do such things.

We have no proof either way, right? So, I guess it's up to what we feel inside.

For that matter, we have no real proof that God exists, right?

So, we'll have to go by the faith of our convictions.

The mediatorship of Christ, and the so-called "age of grace" has nothing to do with this discussion.

Actually, I believe it does. Jesus was not yet sent to us in human form, to be sacrificed and rise again for our sins in the OT. To me, that's a huge difference.

For an example: If things were the same today as they were then, why do we not have the Temple rebuilt yet? Ahh, the Temple is really ourselves nowadays, correct? The Holy Spirit dwells within us, true?

It's a different time, no?

Another example: When Jesus returns, things will be different on Earth as it is today, true? God's way of dealing with us will change, yes? And this will be different from OT times as well, right? See the point I'm making? Although God does not change, nor will He ever, he does choose to deal with us in different ways in certain ages, ok?

That was my point- not that God changes like the wind in different times.

So please, everybody, drop that charge. It wasn't what I was saying at all, and I have a feeling that most of you know that.

So what was Samuel's punishment for ordering Saul to slaughter defenseless babies?

Again, a different time, and under different circumstances. Most of your other points deal with basically the same idea, so I'll let them sleep and move on a little...

Are you saying that God changed between the OT and NT? You say the "times" have changed and that the way God interacts with us has changed... so God has changed--right?

No. Not at all. See above.

I don't see the "silly" in it. I think it's a very important question. Most Christian theologians don't think God changes. If God asked someone to commit what we consider a war crime thousands of years ago, God might ask someone to do it today. The idea that this happens in the OT gives an excuse to anyone (like Muslim extremists) who would try to do it now. I think it's an extremely important issue.

Most of your above quote deal with the issues of God "changing" and I addressed that above. Please don't make an assumption and then run with it without digging a little deeper and giving me a little credit on the matter.

Now, you do bring up a great point in the last two sentences of your above quote: The fact that many use it to justify mass homicide, torture, rape and wanton killing.

Of all of the ones that claimed God told them to do so, how many of them have you believed?

Did you believe Jim Jones? How about David Koresh? Do you believe any of the current or recent past muslim dictators?

I'm willing to bet that no, you did not believe them, right?

Why or why not?

Well, for me, something just did not feel right about either one of their cases. I attribute that to common sense and the leading of the Holy Spirit (in some of the more recent cases anyway. I was not saved, nor did I care much for the word of God back in the days of Jim Jones).

I cannot put my finger on the exact reason why, nor can I lead you to an exact piece of Scripture that defends my not believing them. Maybe, if anything, the "try the spirits" piece of Scripture, of which I cannot, at this moment, remember the exact Book, Chapter or verse, would best describe my position here.

If society locks up an "innocent" man because he claims to have gotten instructions from God to kill his child, then I guess I'll just have to live with myself. It would be a sad precedent if society would let child killers free every time they claimed that God told them to do so.

It would become the easy "get out of jail free" card. All they would have to say is "God told me to do it".

Are you ready for that kind of society?

Now, about my use of the word "silly". The paragraph just above this one is the situation that I apply that word to. The idea that we should accept a murderer's word that God told him to kill a child seems silly to me, not this entire thread, nor most of the responses in it.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, and with that, I will no longer use that word. My apologies to anyone that got offended.

With that, may you all have a Blessed day. I will gracefully bow out of the thread, being as how my points cannot be made any clearer than what I have already written. My point here is not to debate until pride gets in the way of further discussion, and if I continue, I am afraid that I will sink into pride-filled argument to rehash my points over and over again.

Please (not that anyone would do so on this board...) do not attempt to bait me into further discussion. My points are already in my past few responses and they are there for anyone to see. Most of the answers you may need from me are in there somewhere.

If anyone would like to discuss the matter further with me, please send a PM so that the thread can continue without my pride getting in the way of it.

Moving on in His Grace,

t.

[Copper Scroll]

I didn't mean God changes or has changed.

I meant that His ways of dealing with us have changed a bit. The way He interacts with us, in other words.

Big difference.

Can you explain the difference, because it aint so obvious to me?

Let's say you knew a guy who had a characteristic way of interacting with people. You might use this characteristic to describe him to other people. If this guy starts interacting with people in a different way, you are forced to change the way you describe him and think of him yourself. The guy's personality has changed.