Regarding these Trinity discussions ...

[st. Worm]

The worst and most amazing arguments heretics use to deny one of the most important theological truths conveyed in the Bible are:

1. The Roman Catholic church believed in the Trinity so therefore it can't be right.

2. The word Trinity does not appear in the Bible so therefore it can't be true doctrine.

Do those of you who deny the Trinity because of the RCC believe that the church was only invented in 1900? How absurd to be so anti-RCC that you are willing to completely throw out 2000 years of church history because you believe you are a better interpreter of the Bible than any church father prior to the Reformation and Luther, Calvin and others afterwards. How foolish can one be?

And those who deny the Trinity because the term itself does not appear in the Bible surely must be aware that the term "Bible" itself does not appear in the Bible. Does that also mean the Bible is invalid because it is not a biblical term?

Although the Reformation was much needed and has led to good things it is just as clear that many of the most biblically illiterate and untrained fundamentalists have removed themselves so far away from the realm of orthodoxy that in many cases they can no longer be considered as part of the Christian faith. Many have completely redefined God by returning to the old Arian heresy. I am sorry for my harshness but I have seen so much on this board from posters who have left sound doctrine behind yet who are extremely bold and arrogant in their misguided views.

What's even worse is they are pushing their heresy off on unsuspecting new believers who wander on here who don't know the difference. As Jesus said, they will travel land and sea to make a single convert and after they do they will be twice the child of hell.

May God help us,

SW

[Ovedya]

Brother,

I have to say that I agree with you. There are many doctrines of the Roman Church that I disagree with. However, the doctrine of the Trinity is not one of those. It's simply absurd to discard this revealed truth in the Scriptures because one happens to reject other doctrinal issues.

The orthodox Christian church - whether Roman or Protestant - affirms the revealed truth concerning the Triune God, and rejects Tritheism and Modalism in all its forms. I do not fault either the Reformation or the Roman Church's stoicism for the decline in the understanding of some of the most basic - even foundational - doctrines of the church, however.

Last year I heard of a religious survey that was taken (Honestly by whom and of who I cannot remember. It wasn't Newsweek, though), that stated that 80% of Americans consider themselves Christians. Now, I would assume that that was a cross-section of some kind, or at least a reasonable attempt at aquiring a cross-section of Americans from all walks of life - which would have meant that it was irrespective of nationality, ethnic origin, and religious affiliation. Of those 80% that claimed to be Christian less than half stated that they believed that the devil - Satan - is a real. And roughly the same percentage, roughly half, said that they believe that hell is a real place.

Think about that: At least half, or a little less than half, of all professed Christians believe that Satan is a real being and that hell is a real place. Now, who is to blame for this horrendous lack of foundational Biblical understanding? It can't just be secularism and secular humanism that's responsible. The responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of the church! And that is irrespective of denomination!

It's so easy to blame this or that thing for the problems in the church - and believe me, I do see a lot of things to place the blame upon, not the least of which is the fact that the entire church is in a state of apostacy, But the fact of the matter is that much of the church is to blame for the problems in the church.

[Leonard]

Actually, from an historical perspective we can't really speak (intelligently, anyway) about anything like a 'Roman Catholic Church' until at least the 8th century. Since the doctrine of the Trinity was thoroughly investigated and accepted some 400 years prior to this, and in ecumenical Council, to reject the Trinity as a 'Roman doctrine' is utter foolishness.

[st. Worm]

"Last year I heard of a religious survey that was taken (Honestly by whom and of who I cannot remember. It wasn't Newsweek, though), that stated that 80% of Americans consider themselves Christians."

Sadly, many people consider themselves Christians by default. I admit I too was one of those at one time and if someone had asked me what the Gospel was then I could not have told them even though I considered myself a Christian. Many of us confuse civil religion and being a good citizen with being good enough to appease a holy and righteous God. Only Jesus did that but unfortunately many have put their trust in the wrong Jesus, not the one of Scripture but one of their own invention.

[Ovedya]

The off-topic discussion has been split from this thread. Please continue the discussion regarding Swedenborg in the foloowing thread: http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=34740&st=0

[Scarletprayers]

I work with a group of people who probably feel the same way you stated above. They think they are going to heaven because God is good and just wouldn't send them to hell since they don't steal, or kill or what ever. We've gotten into some pretty intense conversations and hope I have planted some seeds?

Now I'm the "office" Bible scholar (oh if they only knew) anytime anything comes up about the Bible, they come ask me. Sometimes I just wanna hand them my Bible and say try reading it. I guess I should just be glad they even ask.

[Iryssa]

Although the Reformation was much needed and has led to good things it is just as clear that many of the most biblically illiterate and untrained fundamentalists have removed themselves so far away from the realm of orthodoxy that in many cases they can no longer be considered as part of the Christian faith. Many have completely redefined God by returning to the old Arian heresy. I am sorry for my harshness but I have seen so much on this board from posters who have left sound doctrine behind yet who are extremely bold and arrogant in their misguided views.

I agree with you completely, especially on this point.

People don't know their Bibles anymore! Interpretation is done like someone trying to use the Force to drive their car! It's created this scary and down right annoying trend of interpreting scripture without any kind of context, giving people the opportunity to twist the Bible to say pretty much whatever they want it to. We're all guilty of it...the problem is that I see people putting in very little effort to correct that habit.

[Joe@actsii]

"Last year I heard of a religious survey that was taken (Honestly by whom and of who I cannot remember. It wasn't Newsweek, though), that stated that 80% of Americans consider themselves Christians."

Sadly, many people consider themselves Christians by default. I admit I too was one of those at one time and if someone had asked me what the Gospel was then I could not have told them even though I considered myself a Christian. Many of us confuse civil religion and being a good citizen with being good enough to appease a holy and righteous God. Only Jesus did that but unfortunately many have put their trust in the wrong Jesus, not the one of Scripture but one of their own invention.

When I was a teenager, I thought I was a Christian. Back then I thought a Christian was anyone that thought Jesus existed. Man was I ignorant.

[ted]

You ain't alone, man.

We were all ignorant at one time, although some say I haven't changed much in the intelligence department since salvation!

t.

[Brother Chad]

The worst and most amazing arguments heretics use to deny one of the most important theological truths conveyed in the Bible are:

1. The Roman Catholic church believed in the Trinity so therefore it can't be right.

2. The word Trinity does not appear in the Bible so therefore it can't be true doctrine.

Do those of you who deny the Trinity because of the RCC believe that the church was only invented in 1900? How absurd to be so anti-RCC that you are willing to completely throw out 2000 years of church history because you believe you are a better interpreter of the Bible than any church father prior to the Reformation and Luther, Calvin and others afterwards. How foolish can one be?

And those who deny the Trinity because the term itself does not appear in the Bible surely must be aware that the term "Bible" itself does not appear in the Bible. Does that also mean the Bible is invalid because it is not a biblical term?

Although the Reformation was much needed and has led to good things it is just as clear that many of the most biblically illiterate and untrained fundamentalists have removed themselves so far away from the realm of orthodoxy that in many cases they can no longer be considered as part of the Christian faith. Many have completely redefined God by returning to the old Arian heresy. I am sorry for my harshness but I have seen so much on this board from posters who have left sound doctrine behind yet who are extremely bold and arrogant in their misguided views.

What's even worse is they are pushing their heresy off on unsuspecting new believers who wander on here who don't know the difference. As Jesus said, they will travel land and sea to make a single convert and after they do they will be twice the child of hell.

May God help us,

SW

I understand how you feel. The Trinity has been a part of Christianity for a long time (too long if you ask me). It has nothing to do with the fact that the RCC is spewing out man-made dogmas left and right. Most people who are a part of that organization are probably very good Christian people. It also has nothing to do with the fact that the word trinity is not in the Bible.

We don't believe because of what the Bible says and the understanding of what the Bible says about Jesus.

I will be very simple with this because the Oneness is not some mystery like some would say of the trinity.

1) Is God the Father a Spirit? Is God the Father Holy?

If you answer yes to these two questions which the Bible clearly state several times then wouldn't that make the Holy Spirit the Father or do we have two Holy Spirits. Do you ever notice that God the Father used "His" Holy Spirit to conceive the baby Jesus. Yet God the Father is the Father of Jesus. These are roles or functions of our one true God and not persons in a Godhead. I don't even feel the need to get into who Jesus Christ was because this right here proves that the Holy Spirit and the Father are one in the same.

Otherwise you have polytheism which is what I see alot of Trinitarians going towards in this forum. Seeing more than One in Heaven is Polytheism whether you admit it or not.

We are just trying to understand just like the rest out there. Something like the Trinity that has been held to be truth for so long is obviously going to be hard to deny but if we see that the Truth is something else, isn't that all we want is truth?