Deserving Eternal Torture/Torment

[Openly Curious]

Ok...let's switch gears here.

The Bible says that "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Revelation 20:9.

Here we have a visual of New Jerusalem sitting on the earth...and the wicked try to attack the city. All of sudden fire comes and destroys the wicked.

The question is...Do we co-habitate on the same planet for eternity with those burning? Do the wicked are the righteous live on the same planet throughout eternity?

Hello,

The scripture speaks for itself here as in this case it is a literal fire it is not symbolic or a figurative fire. This fire as scripture says will come down and destroy them ("devoured them") and if you set fire to anything it will be literally consumed (Poof, gone, no more to be) this is speaking in reference to their earthly bodies not their eternal soul that will live forever (which is another subject). And the scripture is like EricH has said, it is in reference to Jerusalem as God will come and fight with His saints one last time.

Openly Curious

[SDAinFLA]

this is speaking in reference to their earthly bodies not their eternal soul that will live forever (which is another subject). And the scripture is like EricH has said, it is in reference to Jerusalem as God will come and fight with His saints one last time.

I cannot respond to anything regarding the state of the dead. The powers that be will and have deleted anything geared towards that. I am not complaining but rather explaining.

But here is what I am getting at.

Once the fire comes down and destroys the wicked (bodies...or soul) where do they (wicked) physically go after that?

Edited February 14, 2006 by SDAinFLA

[EricH]

this is speaking in reference to their earthly bodies not their eternal soul that will live forever (which is another subject). And the scripture is like EricH has said, it is in reference to Jerusalem as God will come and fight with His saints one last time.

I cannot respond to anything regarding the state of the dead. The powers that be will and have deleted anything geared towards that. I am not complaining but rather explaining.

But here is what I am getting at.

Once the fire comes down and destroys the wicked (bodies...or soul) where do they (wicked) physically go after that?

They are judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:11-15)

[Clio]

Lately, I've been taking a closer look at some of the tenets of our faith.

I'd like to examine the notion that we as sinners are deserving of eternal torture. What scriptures contain this idea? What is your interpretation of that scripture? Why do we deserve to be tortured for eternity?

It is not the torture that is eternal, but the fire that is eternal as it emmanates from the I AM, Who is eternal.

The Bible says over and over that the earth is going to be made new. It will be perfect. Revelation tells us the lake of fire is outside the walls of the New Jerusalem after it is brought to earth by the Father.

If that lake were eternal, then this earth would never be made new, without oceans (also found in Revelation.). Therefore the consequences are eternal, the fire emmanating from the eternal I AM is eternal, but the punishment and destruction duration is finite.

Clio

[EricH]

Lately, I've been taking a closer look at some of the tenets of our faith.

I'd like to examine the notion that we as sinners are deserving of eternal torture. What scriptures contain this idea? What is your interpretation of that scripture? Why do we deserve to be tortured for eternity?

It is not the torture that is eternal, but the fire that is eternal as it emmanates from the I AM, Who is eternal.

The Bible says over and over that the earth is going to be made new. It will be perfect. Revelation tells us the lake of fire is outside the walls of the New Jerusalem after it is brought to earth by the Father.

If that lake were eternal, then this earth would never be made new, without oceans (also found in Revelation.). Therefore the consequences are eternal, the fire emmanating from the eternal I AM is eternal, but the punishment and destruction duration is finite.

Clio

Your logic does not follow that if the lake of fire were eternal that this earth would never be made new. Also you rconclusion that punishment is finite is not supported from the text

[Clio]

Your logic does not follow that if the lake of fire were eternal that this earth would never be made new. Also you rconclusion that punishment is finite is not supported from the text

Ok, Eric. Let me ask you this... Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning?

In Jude 1:7 we are told that the punishment of the wicked as well as the fallen angels is like that of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the word used for eternal is: aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}, which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be 2) without beginning 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting.

Here is the exact texts describing the nature of eternal fire.

Jude 1:7-8 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The greek aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}, is the exact word used in Matthew 25:46 and translated in that text as "everlasting".

Now... Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning. Their punishment was finite, with infinite fire, originating from the eternal I AM. Their destruction was eternal, the duration of their agony was not.

Now, for the rest.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

There is only one conclusion as to the identity of the beloved city referenced in this text. It can only be the New Jerusalem. For these texts take place after the first resurrection of the righteous, identified earlier in this chapter. It specifically states that those who compass the beloved city about, are part of the second resurrection, and will take part in the second death, which is eternal with no further hope of salvation.

Note also that the fire that "devoured them", indicating an ending to the devouring, not an ongoing forever and ever devouring emmanating from the Most High.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is a very different, and limited, group that are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone and tormented forever and ever. Also, we are NOT told where the lake of fire and brimstone actually is. But there are only three inhabitants. It is not likely that the lake of fire and brimstone where the Adversary, the beast and the false prophet are punished is on earth.

Because in the very next sentence he writes, John the Revelator says: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1. Keeping in mind that the greek in which this text was written didn't contain the punctuation, chapter headings and verses that later translators of his manuscript imposed on it.

The better break is in Verse 2 of Revelation 21 where John goes on to expand on what he saw in the vision recorded in Revelation 20. He describes for us what the New Jerusalem looked like, the indescribable beauty of it, a Bride prepared for her husband. He describes for us the no further need for a tabernacle, the ending of all sin, the It is Done. Finished for all time.

In Revelation 21:8, John again speaks of punishment and death. "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Notice that nowhere is there an indication these are tormented forever and ever. They are dead. They die the second death which is eternal. Only the Adversary, the beast and the false prophet are referenced as being tormented forever and ever.

John is specific in both places.

Clio

Edited February 14, 2006 by Clio

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Clio,

Ok, Eric. Let me ask you this... Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning?

I gave an answer that same question a page or so back.

The mistranslation method of this argument has also been used on this Ministry over and over to sustain this Doctrinal belief structure.

Now... Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning. Their punishment was finite, with infinite fire, originating from the eternal I AM. Their destruction was eternal, the duration of their agony was not.

Let me paraphrase what I posted prior on this same discussion.

Yes, those cities were Judged Physically as an ensample. Even as the angels who rebelled are bound, under darkness, until the Day of the Lord. The Scripture is speaking, IMO, of more than just the Physical cities however. I believe it is speaking of the inhabitants. Who we see were wholly UnRighteous as Judged by God, no one else. Abraham the friend of God did not Lobby for the UnRighteous but the Righteous. Asking that the whole of the Inhabitants be spared if there be just 10 Righteous. God agreed. However there obviously weren't 10 found. Abraham the Firend of God was not Lobbying or interceding with God over the Physical cities. He was Lobbying over the inhabitants. The actual people living there.

So we see that the scripture speaks of more than just the Physical cities. God didn't Judge the cites, the Physical structures, but the men in them. Yes, the cities were indeed destroyed and they will never arise. Yet the inhabitants themselves were Judged and found to fall far short and be exceedinbgly UnRighteous. Wicked is the word. So does Sodom burn eternally?

I say, Yes. Gods Word does not return to Him void. It accomplishes the task for which He has sent it forth.

I want to step a little further into this.

Let's discuss Hell.

For whom does the scripture say it was made?

Mt

[SDAinFLA]

Ok. I am not sure if my question was addressed or not.

If the wicked are burning forever and ever and ever and ever and ever...where does this physical punishment take place?

Does God transport them to some dead planet?

I have heard people say that sinners keep burning, but never have been told where they are kept burning forever.

[Smalcald]

Would someone be more likely to accept Christ if they thought hell was eternal torture or eternal death?

I like the description at the beginning when someone said Hell is the absence of God, no peace, no light, no love, etc, so eternal blackness and death, or eternal flames, who cares, its all equally horrible in my mind. I see evidence of both in scripture. Sometimes we may just have to let things be, they are what they are, I don

[SDAinFLA]

Thanks Smalcald. I usually can only do worthyboards maybe a couple times out of the year. It take alot of time to keep checking on messages etc...

I agree with you. Absence from God is already hell.