The gentile and the Jew

[Zildja]

First of all Zildja, Rev. 2:9 is talking about Gentiles who are calling themselves Jews, but are not. They had adopted some Jewish practices, and fell into legalism. They claim to be Jews but are liars. Notice that the same phrase is used in v. 2 of Rev. 2

If it were talking about Gentile that were calling themself Jews it would have said just that. It does not.

What do you think makes someone a jew. Look at the meaning of the Hebrew would YAHUDAH which is were the word Jew comes from it is One that Praises YAH. It is a very plain and simple Explanation of what a Jew is.

Just like the other Names and words that contain Both the FATHER's name YAH and His title EL, they all have meanings.

It they did not embrace the Messiah as the true word of the FATHER, Then they never embraced the FATHER's Commands.

When they rejected the SON they also rejected the FATHER. They Father was exactly who thw Messiah said he was, The father of Lies.

And I said nothing about some of the Jews Embracing YAHSHUA of course they Did Paul himself was a Benjamite.

Alot of the Jews embraced the truth. And also many Heathens that worshiped other God did also.

The point I am making is that Blood does not make you a Jew YAHudah. As YAHSHUA pointed out to us.

In order to be a Jew you have to embrace the word of the FATHER, and the word of the FATHER is WHO?

[Guest shiloh357]

First of all Zildja, Rev. 2:9 is talking about Gentiles who are calling themselves Jews, but are not. They had adopted some Jewish practices, and fell into legalism. They claim to be Jews but are liars. Notice that the same phrase is used in v. 2 of Rev. 2

If it were talking about Gentile that were calling themself Jews it would have said just that. It does not.

That is exactly what it says. You are reading your own definition "Jew" into the passages in Revelation. It is not talking about Jews, falsely calling themselves Jews, it is talking about people who are not Jews, calling themselves Jews.

What do you think makes someone a jew. Look at the meaning of the Hebrew would YAHUDAH which is were the word Jew comes from it is One that Praises YAH. It is a very plain and simple Explanation of what a Jew is.

I am Jewish, and I have a better grasp on what it means. The term "Jew" is a shortened version of the Name Yehuda, who was the fourth son of Jacob.

Oh and by the way, as a Jew, I am particularly offended at the way you butcher and pervert the Name of my Messiah. His Name is Yeshua, NOT YAHSHUAH. You are using a word that is not even found in Hebrew, and is not the Name of our Messiah. Please stop using some corrupted, fake Hebrew word, and spell the Name of the Messiah correctly. It would also help if you learned Hebrew because you are also misspelling Yehuda as well.

The point I am making is that Blood does not make you a Jew YAHudah. As YAHSHUA pointed out to us.

The point you are making was never made by Yeshua. You are just making stuff up, now.

In order to be a Jew you have to embrace the word of the FATHER, and the word of the FATHER is WHO?

No it is not. What do you mean by "embrace?"

You are just another "wannabe jew." probably. If were born as a Gentile, you are one of those of "the synagogue of satan" if you are trying to call youself a "Jew," and are not a Jew. You are trying to broaden the term "Jew" to include people it was never meant to include. Believing in and receiving the Messiah as Savior makes you a believer, a Christian, not a Jew.

[Zildja]

(((((Oh and by the way, as a Jew, I am particularly offended at the way you butcher and pervert the Name of my Messiah. His Name is Yeshua, NOT YAHSHUAH. You are using a word that is not even found in Hebrew, and is not the Name of our Messiah. Please stop using some corrupted, fake Hebrew word, and spell the Name of the Messiah correctly. It would also help if you learned Hebrew because you are also misspelling Yehuda as well.))))

Sorry you are so offended but the fact is that The Name Yeshua does not contain the FATHER's name at all. So it would noy be correct. Would you like to start another thread.

[Zildja]

(((((You are just another "wannabe jew." probably. If were born as a Gentile, you are one of those of "the synagogue of satan" if you are trying to call youself a "Jew," and are not a Jew. You are trying to broaden the term "Jew" to include people it was never meant to include. Believing in and receiving the Messiah as Savior makes you a believer, a Christian, not a Jew.)))))

That is a pretty big slam you are making on me. Such a lovely Jew you are. Or are you are Jew trying to be ???

First of all Zildja, Rev. 2:9 is talking about Gentiles who are calling themselves Jews, but are not. They had adopted some Jewish practices, and fell into legalism. They claim to be Jews but are liars. Notice that the same phrase is used in v. 2 of Rev. 2

If it were talking about Gentile that were calling themself Jews it would have said just that. It does not.

That is exactly what it says. You are reading your own definition "Jew" into the passages in Revelation. It is not talking about Jews, falsely calling themselves Jews, it is talking about people who are not Jews, calling themselves Jews.

What do you think makes someone a jew. Look at the meaning of the Hebrew would YAHUDAH which is were the word Jew comes from it is One that Praises YAH. It is a very plain and simple Explanation of what a Jew is.

I am Jewish, and I have a better grasp on what it means. The term "Jew" is a shortened version of the Name Yehuda, who was the fourth son of Jacob.

Oh and by the way, as a Jew, I am particularly offended at the way you butcher and pervert the Name of my Messiah. His Name is Yeshua, NOT YAHSHUAH. You are using a word that is not even found in Hebrew, and is not the Name of our Messiah. Please stop using some corrupted, fake Hebrew word, and spell the Name of the Messiah correctly. It would also help if you learned Hebrew because you are also misspelling Yehuda as well.

The point I am making is that Blood does not make you a Jew YAHudah. As YAHSHUA pointed out to us.

The point you are making was never made by Yeshua. You are just making stuff up, now.

In order to be a Jew you have to embrace the word of the FATHER, and the word of the FATHER is WHO?

No it is not. What do you mean by "embrace?"

You are just another "wannabe jew." probably. If were born as a Gentile, you are one of those of "the synagogue of satan" if you are trying to call youself a "Jew," and are not a Jew. You are trying to broaden the term "Jew" to include people it was never meant to include. Believing in and receiving the Messiah as Savior makes you a believer, a Christian, not a Jew.

[EricH]

First of all Zildja, Rev. 2:9 is talking about Gentiles who are calling themselves Jews, but are not. They had adopted some Jewish practices, and fell into legalism. They claim to be Jews but are liars. Notice that the same phrase is used in v. 2 of Rev. 2

While I agree with your overall argument, I am not sure I see this as your strongest point. There are several issues with landing here than will cause you some issues.

1. We don't see any place in history where gentiles pretending to be Jews persecuted the Christian church. However, persecution of the early church by those who were of a physical of Jewish heritage, but legalists is well attested in both the scriptures, and in historical documents.

2. Either place you land (Jew or gentile) is really a logical deduction. The text does not overtly state the exact meaning here.

3. Romans 2:28-29 would allow for us to understand this text in the light that the Jews being talked about here are ones like the pharisees. (legalists).

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

The bottom line is even if the passage is talking about real jews who were not true jews (per Romans 2:28-29), it cannot be used as a proof text for the replacement of Israel by the church. So like I said, I agree with your overall conclusion, this is just not your strongest point. By the way, I looked in several commentaries. There is not universal agreement

[Guest shiloh357]

(((((Oh and by the way, as a Jew, I am particularly offended at the way you butcher and pervert the Name of my Messiah. His Name is Yeshua, NOT YAHSHUAH. You are using a word that is not even found in Hebrew, and is not the Name of our Messiah. Please stop using some corrupted, fake Hebrew word, and spell the Name of the Messiah correctly. It would also help if you learned Hebrew because you are also misspelling Yehuda as well.))))

Sorry you are so offended but the fact is that The Name Yeshua does not contain the FATHER's name at all. So it would noy be correct. Would you like to start another thread.

So what if it does not contain the Father's Name? Who said it has to???? Hebrew is Hebrew. In Hebrew it is spelled yod, shin, vav, ayin, hey. The yod has a sheva underneath indicating that the pronunciation is "yeh" not "yah." For it to be "yah" it must have a kamatz or patakh underneath to indicate the vowel. Even a first year Hebrew student can see the proper pronunciation.

Again, learn how to correctly render the Name of the Messiah in Hebrew, if you are going to use the Name. Otherwise you are perverting His sacred Name.

[Guest shiloh357]

1. We don't see any place in history where gentiles pretending to be Jews persecuted the Christian church. However, persecution of the early church by those who were of a physical Jewish heritage is well attested in both the scriptures, and in historical documents.

Jewish leadership primarily persecuted Jews (or converts to Judaism) who were believers. Jews do not particularly care what Gentiles believe or don't believe. It was an in-house fight. The only time Gentiles come under uncondemnation from Jewish people is when they attempt to convert Jews. Most of the time though, even today, it is Jewish believers that receive the brunt of condemenation from organizations like Jews for Judaism, Outreach Judaism, and other groups who primarily target Jewish ministries like Jews for Jesus who are run by Jewish believers.

2. Either place you land (Jew or gentile) is really a logical deduction. The text does not overtly state the exact meaning of the here.

I see the same statement being made in verse two about those who called themselves apostles, but were not in fact, apostles. The same thing seems to be in verse 9. Those who call themselves Jews who are not. Why accept the obvious interpretation of v. 2, but then treat v. 9 differently?? There is no reason to. Why should anyone adopt a metaphorical position of claiming this to be Jews who don't believe in the Messiah? Nowhere in the Bible, are unbelieving Jews called "nonJews." The literal or p'shat of this text leads me to understand this as referring to nonJews who are falsely calling themselves Jews.

3. Romans 2:28-29 would allow for us to understand this text in the light that the Jews being talked about here are ones like the pharisees. (legalists).

Yes, that is true. Paul was rebuking the Jews who wore their Jewishness on their sleeves, who made obnoxious, ostentatious displays of their Jewish pedigree. In boasting and abusing their Jewishness, Paul says that they have become the very antithesis of what Torah observance, and Jewishness really is. In their foolish pride, they both dishonor God and instead of being a light to the Gentiles, the cause the Gentiles to blaspheme God, sending them further and further into darkness. He wa saying that as Jews, they should not boast in the circumcision of the flesh, but rather they should live as those who are circumcised of the heart. He did not call them nonJews, he simply said that Jewish is not merely skin deep.

[Zildja]

H3050

יהּ

yâhh

yaw

Contracted for H3068, and meaning the same; Jah, the sacred name: - Jah, the Lord, most vehement. Cp. names in

[Guest shiloh357]

H3050

יהּ

yâhh

yaw

Contracted for H3068, and meaning the same; Jah, the sacred name: - Jah, the Lord, most vehement. Cp. names in

[Zildja]

I can see we are going to go round and round about this.

Yeshua" is actually not an authentic Hebrew word meaning "salvation". For it to mean "Salvation" it would have to have the Hebrew letter "heh" added to the end of it, changing the spelling to Yod Shin Waw Ayin Heh and it would need to have the "Sheva" vowel point under the Yod. These things further indicate that "Yeshua" isn't from Hebrew, but is an Aramaic form of "Yahushua".

Since the Heavenly Father's name Yah is a Hebrew name, I would not expect to see His Son's name coming from some other language, whether it be Greek, Latin, Aramaic or English. If neither of these languages do it right, why not return to the original and correct form?

The Messiah also stated that He came in the FATHER's name. There are hundreds of Hebrew names that contain, the FATHER's name YAH and you want me to believe that HIS SON's name did not. No I do not believe it.