The Church

[apothanein kerdos]

Peter and John are called, "Unlearned and ignorant men" in the Bible.

This is a side note:

That was an accusation thrown at them by the Pharisees. Are you going to treat that as infallible? Likewise, the epistles of peter show such a great depth of knowledge, that many people have debated on if he truly wrote them because they are beyond the education level of a fisherman of that time.

Fact is, all of the disciples grew in their knowledge of Christ, including Peter. They gained a theological understanding of Christianity. Pastors, in the modern context, seem to abhor such training....and that's why threads like this get started....

[Ovedya]

Saints, please be careful. As a moderator here I cannot condone any discussions that promote or encourage saints to break the law. If this discussion begins to trend that way then it will be removed immediately.

Maybe I missed something, but who is advocating breaking the law? There is no law that says a church must have a tax exempt status. It is optional. The law states that if a church has one, and they preach politics from the pulpit, they can lose that tax exemption. I was not advocating anyone breaking the law. I am suggesting churches consider doing away with their own tax exempt status, or that people start new churches that don't have one. If you were refering to my post, I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.

By the way, this raises another issue. Daniel broke the law and prayed to God 3 times a day. The 3 Hebrew children broke a law and refused to bow to an idol. The Apostles broke the law and preached in Jesus' name. While in most cases I agree with keeping the laws of the land, there is Biblical precident to suggest there are occassions where we are to obey God rather than man.

Not sure if you remember, Butero, but last year around tax time we had a few persons on the boards who were trying to tell the saints that they weren't legally obligated to pay taxes. I'm just being a little proactive, is all.

[Ovedya]

Well, since answering the second part of the poll is dependent upon the post (Which there is none), I can't confidently respond to the poll at all. I think that all churches would say that they follow the precepts of the Bible and not the tax laws. The idea that any local church would follow the tax laws rather than the Bible really seems absurd to me.

I don't personally feel that it's wrong or immoral for any local church to have a 501C3 status (That's tax exempt status). Because the Constitution specifrcally states that the government has no place in church affairs, it is right that the church is not mandated to pay taxes by the Federal Government. A local church having a 501C# status does not mean that it has abandoned the Bible. Besides, that money not being spent on taxes is most often being spent on services that the government is unwilling to provide, or which govenrmental programs are so stingy that people are still suffering. Better that the church can provide services and salvation at the same time!

[Kabowd]

Hold it. Where does the Bible say anything to anyone about theological training?

Peter and John are called, "Unlearned and ignorant men" in the Bible. They were the sons of fishermen. In case you didn't know, that's blue collar work for normally uneducated people, even today, much less thousands of years ago.

I get so tired of seeing this claim thrown around as supposed evidence that we should not educate ourselves. Those verses are so misapplied, they've contributed to the extreme anti-intellectualism that we see today. For one, Peter himself is the one who said that we should always be ready to make a defense (Greek word here was aologia which suggested something like arguments presented in a courtroom). Secondly, Peter himself used great wisdom and knowledge in his evangelism (see Acts 14:15-17; 17:2,4,17-31; 18:4; 19:8). There may not be verses that insist "theological training", but there are numerous verses that command (not just suggest) that we develop our minds and study, grow and learn. Using these verses to defend the lack of education is honestly just really irresponsible.

[Guest man]

Just this one time, let's try to stay on the topic. If you want to talk about educating the mind, start another thread. I don't mean to sound rude but I see so many good topics thrown to the side because someone wants to talk about something else.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

[Guest man]

Man, I want to give a quick response to this education issue, and then hopefully we can get back on topic. The disciples were considered ignorant and unlearned because they had no formal theological training. Their knowledge came from the fact they had been with Jesus. In other words, they had no degrees. Regardless of having a diploma, every minister should study to show themselves approved, but the arguments comes over what we should study. I believe the Bible alone is satisfactory, and others don't. I have no problem with learning from other sources, but don't think it is necessary, anymore than it was necessary that Peter get a diploma before he could preach. Sorry Man. I have had my say on this issue now, and will try to leave it at that.

Back to the topic at hand, I could not answer the poll question either for the reason given by Ovedya. Hopefully the person that started this thread will provide the needed information so people can give an educated response.

No need to apologize. I agree with what was said.

And yeah, more info is needed...otherwise what's the point?

[jamie]

Man, I want to give a quick response to this education issue, and then hopefully we can get back on topic. The disciples were considered ignorant and unlearned because they had no formal theological training. Their knowledge came from the fact they had been with Jesus. In other words, they had no degrees. Regardless of having a diploma, every minister should study to show themselves approved, but the arguments comes over what we should study. I believe the Bible alone is satisfactory, and others don't. I have no problem with learning from other sources, but don't think it is necessary, anymore than it was necessary that Peter get a diploma before he could preach. Sorry Man. I have had my say on this issue now, and will try to leave it at that.

Back to the topic at hand, I could not answer the poll question either for the reason given by Ovedya. Hopefully the person that started this thread will provide the needed information so people can give an educated response.

Butero, maybe I will start a topic on this because I don't understand why churches want Pastors with college degrees. It really bothers me and I feel it has played a huge part in how apostasy has seeped into the churches.

In the new testament it was the pharisitical system that was supposedly well 'educated'. We see how well that went, spiritually speaking.

Same today, full circle.

Sorry, back to the topic!

[delivered]

The idea of having to fill out tithing cards is also wrong. The Bible says not to let the left hand know what the right hand does. This goes against the Bible. I have decided that it is better to give up a deduction for charitable giving than to provide such records to the church leaders or the IRS.

Couldn't agree more.

I find myself agreeing with AK on this. I am no lover of government, and the IRS is atrocious. However, with all the fly-by-night "churches" out there, lead by men or women with no formal theological training

Hold it. Where does the Bible say anything to anyone about theological training?

Peter and John are called, "Unlearned and ignorant men" in the Bible. They were the sons of fishermen. In case you didn't know, that's blue collar work for normally uneducated people, even today, much less thousands of years ago.

But, if a group wants to call itself a "church," meet in house or a barn or whatever, they can call themselves and church and sidestep the government all together. .

I thought that's what the church was supposed to do anyway. That's what the church was in the time of Acts, and even for decades later. This bit of us having to go to a multimillion dollar facility to worship God, and listen to a preacher in a $3000 suit with a phd in theology is a bunch of unbiblical garbage.

[delivered]

I agree that a believer who becomes a preacher does not have to attend theological school to become qualified. Scripture bears witness to the fact that the Holy Spirit teaches us who believe. I am a witness to that fact. The word came alive in me and filled my heart with truth and knowledge. The spirit reminds us of what we've learned. Though theological school can be helpful, I don't believe it is necessary. Who taught Paul? None other than the Spirit. Though a church building can be a beautiful gathering place for worship, I don't believe it is necessary. After all, where two or more believers are gathered, God is in the midst; therefore, there is the church.

[ElijahSK]

Just to maybe give you guys a little insight on for what I posted this topic.

Basicly, by today's standard, there was no church in the New Testament. Of Jesus, the apostles, et al there was no minister in that time. They had no Bible college. They didn't believe in sunday school. They didn't seperate the families. They eat meals together. All the men participated in the meetings. They didn't have a one man show. They didn't have worship leaders (that was everyone's job). They were not registered with the government. Thus they obviously weren't 501c3 corporations. The list goes on and on and on.

Well, most people don't and would excommunicate anyone who did ask why do we do things so differently from them in the earlier church? If you ask that, I know a questioned that always plagued my growing up in the church is, why do we see such a lack of power in the church? Why the lack of zeal?

It isn't hard to find how the churches were ran in the New Testament. It is hard to find a church that does it their way today. That is the church I am looking for. That is why I posted this topic. The first ones to respond thought it just sounded like I was looking for something to complain about so I deleted all of what I said. Because we are not called to form divisions but to come together. The unfortunate thing for me, which I don't know if anyone here will understand, is that I have a godly family with which to fellowship, but I long for that church they had. I cannot go to a church that meets in big groups in large building with one man speaking and another group leading a list of songs. I beg you that someone understand or at least attempt to see my point of view. Not that you hold it, but you understand that there is someone out their that is deeply disturbed within their very heart over what they see going on at all times in today's so called "church".

I cannot go and meet because I believe in small groups meeting in each other's houses (doesn't have to be but please just hear me out) with all the men bringing what God has lead them in to the meetings so all can be exhorted, corrected, admonished, praised, whatever just so that we can edify each other, each one brings a song, each one brings a teaching, each one a prophecy, each one a tongue each one an interpretation of that tongue. We are a family! We are more than family we are one! Our every ambition is to glory God and serve Him by everything we do, say, eat, drink, wear, look at, everything.

I know there are plenty of people who go to "church" even though they are the church and they get something out of it. It's great from them. They get something out of it every week. But for me to go with them is for me a sin. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Sinning in ignorance is not the same as willful sin. If you don't know that Paul commands us by the inspiration of God to hold to those traditions which he passed down to every single church so that every single church was scructured and acted the same way, then you're fine. If you don't understand that a command is something we should do, please don't fault me for believing it and I won't fault you.

The power of the church is rooted in it's unity. We must act as the body of Christ before we receive power as the body of Christ. If you are trying to walk but both legs are taking a different direction you although you take very many steps don't get anywhere. If you try to juggle but you do not have unity in your body so the hand doesn't work with the elbow the elbow doesn't even know the shoulder, the shoulders are always limp from lack of excerise, then you're going to find juggling impossible. Now some people can juggle with one hand, but with two they could juggle 10 times as many things.

One of the main reasons I can not perticpate in the church of today, is that 400 years ago they began letting in unbelievers so they could convert them because the congregation would almost never do it if left up to them. So the church of God, his body, first gets changed into a building. Then when we start letting unbelievers in now we have two churches. The church we go to and the church that is maybe 20% at a high figure of those people that come to our "churches". That is to say the real church, the body of Christ. Why do we see in scripture them say what fellowship has the believer with the unbeliever? the righteous with the unrighteous? Light with darkness? The obvious answer is they have nothing in common. Believers seperate themselves from the world so maybe if those in the world ever look at them they'll see a clear difference. Those guys want nothing more than to please God. Why I've never even thought of how to do that let me talk to one and see how he does it. And as soon as you seperate yourself from the world and start acting as we should again, God adds to our numbers daily. Don't be deceived. Bad company corrupts good morals. That means that if at once you believed, yea I should always do what the Bible says cause God's way is not always my way but without a doubt it's the best way, you could consider that good morals. Enters bad company. "I'm an unbeliever, you know I think you guys are onto something there, but I won't devote the time to study something so important. Hey would you guys teach my kids this stuff since I won't be able to?" Now instead of parents teach your children, we make an exception for bad company. Once the exception is made for bad company here is how it corrupts, "Well, after 40 years now we have seen how much our sunday school program has paid off for bad companies children. How about we teach everyone's kids?" And without a second thought the biblical doctrine of parents teaching their children, gets handed over to a mistaken albeit well meaning "church". A believer should teach his kids. If he doesn't know enough, he should study and maybe get some advice that he researches and check out thoroughly in scripture and then teach his kid.

We've gone from the most power group of people in all time. That is the body of Christ as it was seen in the early church. To a church discombobulated and apostate. One that it is no stretch for one to say resembles the church in Laodicea.

I can't explain how much I don't want to come off as complaining. But please, if one in the body of Christ mourns we are to mourn with it. And where I rejoice in the victory Christ has given us. I mourn the loss of His body's unity as he arranged it to be unified.

I recently broke my collar bone and 4 bones in my hip in a car accident getting tboned by a SUV. I was walking 4 days later because I could not stand to complain about the great pain I had in walking. Instead I took the pain in stride and got back home where for 2 months I have felt my collar bone still fractured in my shoulder. After 2 weeks I ran out of pain killers and had no money to get more or even go to the doctor to get a prescription for more. Rather than complain I withdrew myself at times. I am not saying this to glory in myself, God gave me strength. I merely hope to show you a little of how much I hate to complain. There is no way I can state it that conveys it well enough that I am satified with it. But I hope you'll believe me.

Please, I, your enstranged brother, beg of you to help me find a solution. I will settle for nothing less than complete submission to God in all things. And for me that includes having a biblical meeting of the church. Paul tells us not to make offend each other's consciences. And where I am sincerely offended at people calling the evangelical meetings the church, and though I would like to see the entire body of Christ leave them to return to the New Testament patterns, I wouldn't hold you to that standard. But for me I tell you (in truth before God) it is a sin to join in unbiblical church. I would not will to join to Christ's body a harlot. But if I allow unbelievers in, and partake of the Lord's supper with them I have done nothing short of that. Luckily today's church doesn't take the Lord's supper, otherwise I would have great fear of so many dying from taking it unworthily. But I am not trying to come down on you. What can I say to edify you? Although I cannot go to what people nowadays call the "Lord's house" like we are not the temple of the Lord. I'm still glad the Lord is the Author and Finisher of all of our faiths. And thankfully we each have our own measure that we will be judged by. But please, have compassion on me, my brethren, try to come up with a solution from the perpective of my conscience. You may be able to give me many reasons why today's evangelical meetings are good. But please, that will not help someone whose conscience has forbid them from such. There much be a way, in Christ all things are possible. But I will not sin to accomplish it, and I don't expect you to either.