The sons of God

[Guest Duane]

This may be a bit haphazard, since I really can not recreate the threads in their entirety, but...

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

I had pointed out that the serpent is described as more subtil that any beast that God had made. Not any other beast, but any beast.

And this leads me to believe that the serpent was not a talking snake, as so many think. The snake is a beast that God made, and the serpent is more subtil than any beast.

And Man is no beast, but created in the image of God. And we can see clearly that Man is more subtil than any beast.

And from what we read in Genesis, only Man was created other than the beasts and fish and so on. We see no referrence to angels, yet, only Man. In fact, there is no referrence to when the angels were created in the Bible, just that they were created and existed at or before the foundation of the world.

But as we were chosen in Christ Jesus, before the foundation of the world, we too existed at that time. And as Adam had yet to be formed from dust, we were in a spirit state, just as the angels.

It was also pointed out that at times certain men are referred to as Satan or the devil. Jesus called Peter Satan, and addressed Peter as Satan, when Peter rebuked the Lord. And Jesus called Judas a devil.

Cain is said to be of the wicked one, but Cain is clearly of Adam. The wicked one refers to the devil, Satan, the serpent.

The arguement was that the Lord addresses the serpent and Adam separately, so therefore they are separate individuals.

But just as Jesus addresses Peter both as Peter, and as Satan when Peter is outside of the will of the Father, the Lord could also have addressed Adam and the serpent separately even though they could be the same individual.

Lucifer, also thought to be angel, and Satan, is also called a man in the one passage that speaks of Lucifer, that other bright and morning star.

And another passage in Ezekiel that is said to refer to Satan:

Ezekiel 28:12 ...Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

But this too could refer to Adam. The cherub part could be Adams state when, or before he was formed of dust, or of a later time.

But this passage too is addressed to the king of Tyrus: 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. ...

It is actually talking to a man, not an angel.

And now I bring up the point of the term son of God. And how it refers to both Man and Angel.

There is a bit more, I think, but that should do for now.

[Catsmeow]

Satan is a spirit, Duane. A spirit. A malignant, evil spirit.

People who abide in his (Satan's) will are in compliance with an evil spirit which feeds our fleshly natures.

Satan's nature/character is one of utter self-centeredness. It focuses on self and self alone.

God's Holy Spirit is the opposite - outwardly focused on the needs of others.

Satan takes. God gives. Satan leads to death; Christ leads to life.

They are opposite ends of the spectrum...extreme polar opposites.

Adam was a man, created perfectly and in the image of God.

He choose to use his free will to serve himself and rebel against God.

Adam then assumed the character (or nature) of Satan, rather than the nature of God, which is pure and holy.

This is so simple, a small child can perceive it.

[Guest Duane]

That when referring to the sons of God, the serpent, the devil, Satan, Man, angels, the Bible is referring to us.

So your saying that the sons of God, serpent, devil ,satan, man, and angels all share the same biology namely all humanoid. The only difference is their residence.

Not exactly. Biology seems to refer to just the physical nature, doesn't it?

Our physical nature will change when we are resurrected. But it still seems similar enough, or can be similar enough, to interbreed.

I am speaking more of the spiritual nature, the essence of both Man and Angel.

I am saying that Man and Angel are the same creation of God, but, as I said earlier it is referring to us from different points of our existance in the overall scheme of things.

[Catsmeow]

I am saying that Man and Angel are the same creation of God, but, as I said earlier it is referring to us from different points of our existance in the overall scheme of things.

Hmm..

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;.....

Pre-existence? I have always wondered about this verse.

[Guest Duane]

Satan is a spirit, Duane. A spirit. A malignant, evil spirit.

People who abide in his (Satan's) will are in compliance with an evil spirit which feeds our fleshly natures.

Satan's nature/character is one of utter self-centeredness. It focuses on self and self alone.

God's Holy Spirit is the opposite - outwardly focused on the needs of others.

Satan takes. God gives. Satan leads to death; Christ leads to life.

They are opposite ends of the spectrum...extreme polar opposites.

Adam was a man, created perfectly and in the image of God.

He choose to use his free will to serve himself and rebel against God.

Adam then assumed the character (or nature) of Satan, rather than the nature of God, which is pure and holy.

This is so simple, a small child can perceive it.

In the image of God...

Describe that image to me, please.

Does the image include the possibility of evil? Or just the possibility of good?

[Guest Calamity]

That when referring to the sons of God, the serpent, the devil, Satan, Man, angels, the Bible is referring to us.

So your saying that the sons of God, serpent, devil ,satan, man, and angels all share the same biology namely all humanoid. The only difference is their residence.

Not exactly. Biology seems to refer to just the physical nature, doesn't it?

Our physical nature will change when we are resurrected. But it still seems similar enough, or can be similar enough, to interbreed.

I am speaking more of the spiritual nature, the essence of both Man and Angel.

I am saying that Man and Angel are the same creation of God, but, as I said earlier it is referring to us from different points of our existance in the overall scheme of things.

Duane. Man and angels are not the same. Man was created to fellowship with God. Man is flesh and blood, and spirit. Angels are spirit. Salvation is for MANKIND, not for angels. Man was created UNIQUELY to all other creation, in the image of God. I haven't found where the Bible says that angels were created in God's image.

John.17

[1] These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

[2] As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Rom.1

[3] Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Heb. 2:

[7] Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

[9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

[16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

IPeterI:

[12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Luke 24:

[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Zech.12

[1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

I do not think we PRE-EXISTED in some other form. Read the verse above. God has foreknowledge, and it does not depend upon our pre-existence for Him to have that foreknowledge. Like I've said before, the Mormons and many New Age doctrines teach pre-existence. I don't believe it's taught in the Bible.

[Guest Duane]

That when referring to the sons of God, the serpent, the devil, Satan, Man, angels, the Bible is referring to us.

So your saying that the sons of God, serpent, devil ,satan, man, and angels all share the same biology namely all humanoid. The only difference is their residence.

Not exactly. Biology seems to refer to just the physical nature, doesn't it?

Our physical nature will change when we are resurrected. But it still seems similar enough, or can be similar enough, to interbreed.

I am speaking more of the spiritual nature, the essence of both Man and Angel.

I am saying that Man and Angel are the same creation of God, but, as I said earlier it is referring to us from different points of our existance in the overall scheme of things.

Duane. Man and angels are not the same. Man was created to fellowship with God. Man is flesh and blood, and spirit. Angels are spirit. Salvation is for MANKIND, not for angels. Man was created UNIQUELY to all other creation, in the image of God. I haven't found where the Bible says that angels were created in God's image.

John.17

[1] These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

[2] As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Rom.1

[3] Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Heb. 2:

[7] Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

[9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

[16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

IPeterI:

[12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Luke 24:

[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Zech.12

[1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

I do not think we PRE-EXISTED in some other form. Read the verse above. God has foreknowledge, and it does not depend upon our pre-existence for Him to have that foreknowledge. Like I've said before, the Mormons and many New Age doctrines teach pre-existence. I don't believe it's taught in the Bible.

Luke 11:50 - That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation

The blood of the prophets was shed from the foundation of the world, from the very beginning.

Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. We were in Christ Jesus at that time. And that time was before the foundation of the world. So we had to have pre-existed before Adam was formed.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Even all the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

We were known before being formed in the womb.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. 11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

There are things that say we pre-existed. And we do not know in what form that was. But it was not as we are today, except maybe in spirit.

We do not remember the former time, nor will we remember this time in the time to come.

But God Almighty remembers.

[Catsmeow]

I struggle with that last part because I can't imagine not remembering my loved ones here on earth after I die in this body.

I would hope we will be bonded to them in some way. Then again, it would be horrendous to know some of our loved ones who didn't go to heaven and to contemplate their horrible fate.

If what you say is true about after death, I am wondering about the parable Jesus told about the beggar and Lazarus. Lazarus and the beggar still "knew" each other but were separated by a vast expanse between heaven and hades.

I just wonder if we will indeed recall the events of our time on earth.

[Catsmeow]

I am saying that Man and Angel are the same creation of God, but, as I said earlier it is referring to us from different points of our existance in the overall scheme of things.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;.....

Can no one tell me what this means? I'm not even remotely "Mormon" and so far from New Age it's laughable...but when I read this verse...I can't help but wonder.

If we did not exist in some form - then what does this verse mean? It's an honest question.

[Guest Duane]

I struggle with that last part because I can't imagine not remembering my loved ones here on earth after I die in this body.

I would hope we will be bonded to them in some way. Then again, it would be horrendous to know some of our loved ones who didn't go to heaven and to contemplate their horrible fate.

If what you say is true about after death, I am wondering about the parable Jesus told about the beggar and Lazarus. Lazarus and the beggar still "knew" each other but were separated by a vast expanse between heaven and hades.

I just wonder if we will indeed recall the events of our time on earth.

Maybe it is the Soul of the person that we will recognize.

As opposed to the body, which will be different in heaven.

At first I was going to say the Spirit of the person, but we are all of the same Spirit.