Dietary Laws & Sabbath Keeping

[~SPIRITBLADE~]

I tell my friend the same thing about if she believes its sin then to her it would be. I do not discourage her willful bondage. She says that we christians are sinning by not obeying the law of Moses. She calls herself a believer but not a christian. I feel, to come under the law would be disobedience to God like turning your back on His gift of grace through FAITH. He said, Don't call unclean what God has cleansed..Please pray for her. She doesn't talk about the Holy Spirit much at all 2 Cor 3:1-18 v.15 BUT EVEN TO THIS DAY, WHEN MOSES IS READ, A VEIL LIES ON THEIR HEART. I can't quit talking to her until the Holy Spirit convicts me to move on.

Galatians2:21 I DO NOT FRUSTRATE THE GRACE OF GOD: FOR IF RIGHTEOUSNESS COME BY THE LAW, THEN CHRIST IS DEAD IN VAIN.

Galatians 3:10-12

v.10 FOR AS MANY AS ARE OF THE WORKS OF THE LAW ARE UNDER THE CURSE: for as it is written Cursed is everyone who does not continue in ALL things which are written in the book of the law, to do them

v.11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, "FOR THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH"

V.12 YET THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH,but"THE MAN WHO DOES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM"

Galatian 5:1-12 v.1 stand therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free,and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

v.2 Behold, I paul say to you, that if you be circumcised, CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING.

v.3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,that he is a debtor TO DO THE WHOLE LAW.

v.4 Christ has become of no effect to you,whosoever of you are justified by the law:YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE..

.v.5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness BY FAITH.

v.6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision avails anything,nor un circumcision:but faith which works by love

v.7 You DID run well;WHO DID HINDER YOU THAT YOU SHOULD NOT OBEY the TRUTH?

v.8This persuasion comes NOT OF HIM THAT CALLS YOU.

v.9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

v10 I have confidence in you through our Lord,that you will be none other wise minded; but he who troubles you SHALL BEAR HIS JUDGMENT, whosoever he be

v.11And I brethen, IF I YET PREACH CIRCUMCISION,WHY DO I YET SUFFER PERSECUTION? THEN IS THE OFFENCE OF THE CROSS CEASED

V.12 IWISH THAT THOSE WHO TROUBLE YOU WOULD EVEN CUT THEMSELVES OFF!!

-whoa, a query posed, ought not engeder 'thumping'.

having said that;

an HEBREW, (note, HE BREW= God made) is BOUND by LAW. a CHRISTIAN, is BOUND by FAITH.

all men are subject to the curse of the Law, (only a personal ADVOCATE, can persuade our Judge otherwise)-

i personally won't eat crustaceans, because God made them to clean the ocean, (not be food)- however the Messiah comes to Paul and advocated all things are now clean for chow. so a MESSIANIC JEW can eat all things. whereas a Hebrew won't...and therefore BOTH are CORRECT, (from thier different BRANCHES).

[Guest shiloh357]

I tell my friend the same thing about if she believes its sin then to her it would be. I do not discourage her willful bondage. She says that we christians are sinning by not obeying the law of Moses. She calls herself a believer but not a christian. I feel, to come under the law would be disobedience to God like turning your back on His gift of grace through FAITH. He said, Don't call unclean what God has cleansed..Please pray for her. She doesn't talk about the Holy Spirit much at all 2 Cor 3:1-18 v.15 BUT EVEN TO THIS DAY, WHEN MOSES IS READ, A VEIL LIES ON THEIR HEART. I can't quit talking to her until the Holy Spirit convicts me to move on.

Galatians2:21 I DO NOT FRUSTRATE THE GRACE OF GOD: FOR IF RIGHTEOUSNESS COME BY THE LAW, THEN CHRIST IS DEAD IN VAIN.

Galatians 3:10-12

v.10 FOR AS MANY AS ARE OF THE WORKS OF THE LAW ARE UNDER THE CURSE: for as it is written Cursed is everyone who does not continue in ALL things which are written in the book of the law, to do them

v.11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, "FOR THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH"

V.12 YET THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH,but"THE MAN WHO DOES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM"

Galatian 5:1-12 v.1 stand therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free,and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

v.2 Behold, I paul say to you, that if you be circumcised, CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING.

v.3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,that he is a debtor TO DO THE WHOLE LAW.

v.4 Christ has become of no effect to you,whosoever of you are justified by the law:YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE..

.v.5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness BY FAITH.

v.6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision avails anything,nor un circumcision:but faith which works by love

v.7 You DID run well;WHO DID HINDER YOU THAT YOU SHOULD NOT OBEY the TRUTH?

v.8This persuasion comes NOT OF HIM THAT CALLS YOU.

v.9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

v10 I have confidence in you through our Lord,that you will be none other wise minded; but he who troubles you SHALL BEAR HIS JUDGMENT, whosoever he be

v.11And I brethen, IF I YET PREACH CIRCUMCISION,WHY DO I YET SUFFER PERSECUTION? THEN IS THE OFFENCE OF THE CROSS CEASED

V.12 IWISH THAT THOSE WHO TROUBLE YOU WOULD EVEN CUT THEMSELVES OFF!!

Galatians is not, as some are keen on believing, the death knell of the Torah (law). I wish people would pay attention to what Paul is addressing in this book.

The Galatians were being onset by Judaizers who were convincing them that they had to become physical Jews, and join the physical nation of Israel in addition to believing in the Messiah. That is why circumcision takes center stage in this passage.

Paul was not condemning Torah observance (Sabbath, dietary laws, etc.). He was attacking the Judaizers who were making circumcision a mandatory observance for salvific purposes.

Paul was a very Torah observant Jew, having performed TWO sacrifices as noted in the book of Acts. He kept the festivals as well. Paul would have been a hypocrite to condemn the very practices in which he engaged. Paul's issue in Galatians pertained to the issue of Gentiles converting to the Jewish religion. That is the the only reason that circumcision was even being brought up.

I would also like to ask the general readership on this thread to reexamine Romans 14. Romans 14 has NOTHING TO DO WITH KEEPING THE LAW.

Romans 14 is dealing with issues of conscience. You cannot apply apply what Romans 14 says, to things like the Sabbath, or the Torah's dietary laws and so forth. Romans 14 is addressing extra-biblical dietary habits (vegetarianism, for example is expressly mentioned). It is also dealing with extra-biblical holidays. It talks about the days that "man esteems." That has nothing to do with the Sabbath or festivals. Please, when reading Romans 14 understand that he is talking to Gentiles about how to relate to the culture they live in. My point is that if you are going to discuss "Torah observance," then at least try to use Scriptures that actually deal with that issue. The Torah does not contain matters of conscience.

Now, to answer the OP's question... No, keeping the Torah does not mean that someone is weak. The "weakness" that Paul is referring to, amounts to those Gentiles who, because of conscience felt that there were certain foods or certain practices they could no longer engage in because, though they did not directly violate the Bible, reminded them of their sinful past, and might be stumbling block. Some would not eat meat that had been sacrificed to idols. Therefore, they would not meat at all, since they could not be sure if a piece of meat had been offered to idols. Paul said that was OK, but that eating meat sacrificed to idols was OK as well, seeing that idols are nothing. We have similar issues in our day which would receive the same advice from Paul.

Now as for Acts 15... In Acts 15 the decision was made not burden the new Gentiles believers with more than they could handle. The decision was reached (with the aid of the Holy Spirit) that they should observe four basic commandments. They were to avoid idolatry, fornication, they were not to eat meat with blood in it, and they were not eat meat from an animal that had been strangled. There were TWO dietary commandments in that ruling. These four commandments formed the bare essentials for the Gentiles to have table fellowship with the Jewish believers. A Torah observant Jew will not enter the home of an idolater, a fornicator, nor with they eat at a table of someone who eats unclean animals.

Not eating meat from an animal that had been strangled was very important, because it dealt with the rules of "kashrut." These laws of kashrut were in existence in the days of the apostles. Kashrut is the body of rules that maintain how an animal is to be slaughtered for Jewish consumption. Strangling, suffocating, smashing the skull (as is done today), were/are not acceptable means of killing an animal for consumption. In kashrut the animal is not made to suffer. The animals jugular is pricked, and the animal is bled. It simply falls asleep. Killing an animal before bleeding it, makes it more difficult to get all of the blood out. The animal is further bled after it is dead by the way it butchered in order to remove the remaining blood.

So, if you were a new believing Gentile, AND you read/heard these four commandments, and you took them seriously, where would you go to make sure that the meat you were eating was "blood-free," and not from an animal that had been strangled?? The only place you could go would be to a Jewish butcher. The only meat that you could get from a Jewish butcher that met the above requirements, would be from animals that were permissable for Jews to eat. Jewish butchers did not sell pork.

[Guest yod]

It's hard to overcome centuries of error in a single post, but what do you suppose the Apostle meant when he said, "Let those of the circumcision remain that way (as if they could put foreskin back on?) and let those of the uncircumcision remain as they are called also"

Jews were never told that they could/should disobey the Torah....and neither were gentiles. However there are things which are specific to the jewish people which are not required of gentiles. It doesn't make a gentile wicked to be joined to those things but they can not make one righteous or justified in the sight of God.

The dietary instructions would add years to your life though....so how is that a bad thing?

[EricH]

I had a Messianic Jew visit in our church as part of Chosen People Ministries last year. He was from Moscow, highly intelligent, raised to be agnostic but "found his Jewishness" in adulthood. I was intrigued to find that he kept dietary laws like the orthodox, wore orthodox symbolism, and kept the Sabbath. He read and embraced the truths of the New Testament including the plight of Peter's struggle with the Law and the new liberty. I asked him questions on key verses and narratives where the traditions of men were discussed. I never got clear answers from him that satisfied my desire to know if he was in bondage to tradition. The closest he got to answering me, he said he still felt obligated to keep the covenant. Was my friend right, wrong, or as Paul put it weak minded in this area?

Obviously, he didn't try to force it on you so he was "right"

If you study the early original church you will find that all the apostles and the earliest believers were still jews who kept kosher....kept torah. They ruled that it would not be forced upon gentiles to become jews in Acts 15 but even one of those 4 basic requirements for gentiles was a dietary law. (no eating of blood)

Do you think that "not" keeping torah makes someone righteous? Of course not and neither does keeping it make one unrighteous. Let every man be convinced in his own mind (Romans 14)

It seems a bit arrogant to say this person was "weak-minded" because you don't understand the scriptures about this subject.

I have a friend who is not a jew and she insists that we are still under the old testament laws. We've talked (debated) almost every day for over two years now. She insists that its a sin to not keep the holy days. I have found nothing to support the things she says only to the contrary. As far as a Messianic Jew is concerned, the whole book of Hebrews is written to Jews who wrer struggling with these very issues.

[nanasimmons]

IF WE ARE TO BECOME JEWS THEN GOD IS A GOD TO THE JEWS ONLY.

JUST LIKE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT(NUM 14:11,22,23) EXPLAINED IN HEWBREWS 3:17-19 AND

CHAPTER 4 REFUSING TO ENTER INTO HIS REST

WHY WAS THE LAW GIVEN? IT WAS ADDED FOR THE DIVINE PURPOSE THAT IT MIGHT CLEARLY REVEAL SIN AS TRANSGRESSION OR PERSONAL GUILT. TO SHOW SINNFUL MAN'S OLD NATURE. SINCE THE LAW CON NOT KEEP MAN FROM SINNING,BUT ACTUALLY PROVOKED HIM TO SIN MORE.ITS INTRODUCTION, AFTER COVENANT OF GRACE WAS STRICKLY TEMPORARY "UNTIL THE SEED (CHRIST) SHOULD COME" THE "PROMISE" CHANNELED THROUGH HIM WOULD BE REALIZED. IN WAS ADDED TO CONCLUDE THAT ALL BOTH JEW AND GENTILE ARE UNDER SIN IT SHUT UP SINNFUL MEN TO GRACE AS THE ONLY WAY OF SALVATION.

IT MARKS A PERIOD OF CHILDTRAINING FOR THE JEW IT WAS TO TRAIN HIM AS A MINOR WITH CHILDISH "DOS" AND "DON'TS" TILL HE CAME TO THE SPIRITUAL ADULDHOOD IN CHRIST.

ALL BELIEVERS HAVE THE STATUS OF "SONS OF GOD" UNDER FAITH AND NOT MERE "CHILDREN" AS UNDER LAW.

ALTHOUGH THE CHILD IS HEIR, AS LONG AS HE IS A MINOR HE DOES NOT DIFFER FROM A SLAVE,DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE IS DESTINED TO INHERIT ALL. HE IS UNDER CHILD-TRAINING UNTIL THE FATHER CONSTITUTES HIM HEIR. THE COMPARISION IS TO THE JEWS WHO WHEN UNDER THE LAW WERE CHILDREN AND SERVANTS-NOT SONS-AND IN BONDAGE TO LEGALISTIC ELEMENTS, NOT FREE IN THE GRACE OF CHRIST.

CHRIST'S COMING WAS IN THE" FULLNESS OF TIME"WHEN THE LAW HAD FULLY DISCHARGED ITS TASK AS A SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US TO CHRIST. THEN GOD SENT HIS SON TO REDEEM US FROM THE LAW,THAT WE MIGHT HAVE THE PLACEMENT OF FULL GROWN SONS IN THE AGE OF GRACE.

PLACEMENT OF FULL ADULT SONS MEANS FULL DELIVERANCE FROM THE CHILD-SERVANT STATUS OF THE LEGAL AGE WITH THE SPIRIT SEALING THE FINAL RELATIONSHIP.

GALATIANS 3,4

THE LAWS PLACE IS SHOW MEN THEIR NEED OF A SAVIOR THUS TO BRING PEOPLE TO CHRIST

IF CONVERTS DO NOT SEE HOW EXCEEDINGLY SINFUL THEY ARE BY THE LAW AND THEIR DESPRITE NEED OF A SAVIOR(CHRIST) THEN THEY MOST LIKELY WILL BE FALSE CONVERTS

GOATS AMOUNG THE SHEEP

[nanasimmons]

KEEPING DIETARY LAWS MAY BE FINE AND DANDY TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BLESSED ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT EVER THEY MAY WISH TO EAT, MY PROBLEM IS THAT IF ITS NOT A GOSPEL THAT CAN BE APPLIED TO EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING ON THIS EARTH THEN IT IS NOT "THE GOSPEL" HOW MANY CHRISTIANS WOULD BE EXCLUDED BY THIS THEORY?? EPHESIANS 2:13-22 TALKS ABOUT THE WALL OF SEPARATION BEING REMOVED AND THE TWO INTO ONE NEW MAN.

BEING MADE NEW MEANS PUTTING OFF OLD

ALL THING HAVE BECOME NEW...THE CHURCH..NOW THE BODY OF CHRIST

[Guest shiloh357]

IF WE ARE TO BECOME JEWS THEN GOD IS A GOD TO THE JEWS ONLY.

JUST LIKE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT(NUM 14:11,22,23) EXPLAINED IN HEWBREWS 3:17-19 AND

CHAPTER 4 REFUSING TO ENTER INTO HIS REST

WHY WAS THE LAW GIVEN? IT WAS ADDED FOR THE DIVINE PURPOSE THAT IT MIGHT CLEARLY REVEAL SIN AS TRANSGRESSION OR PERSONAL GUILT. TO SHOW SINNFUL MAN'S OLD NATURE. SINCE THE LAW CON NOT KEEP MAN FROM SINNING,BUT ACTUALLY PROVOKED HIM TO SIN MORE.ITS INTRODUCTION, AFTER COVENANT OF GRACE WAS STRICKLY TEMPORARY "UNTIL THE SEED (CHRIST) SHOULD COME" THE "PROMISE" CHANNELED THROUGH HIM WOULD BE REALIZED. IN WAS ADDED TO CONCLUDE THAT ALL BOTH JEW AND GENTILE ARE UNDER SIN IT SHUT UP SINNFUL MEN TO GRACE AS THE ONLY WAY OF SALVATION.

IT MARKS A PERIOD OF CHILDTRAINING FOR THE JEW IT WAS TO TRAIN HIM AS A MINOR WITH CHILDISH "DOS" AND "DON'TS" TILL HE CAME TO THE SPIRITUAL ADULDHOOD IN CHRIST.

ALL BELIEVERS HAVE THE STATUS OF "SONS OF GOD" UNDER FAITH AND NOT MERE "CHILDREN" AS UNDER LAW.

ALTHOUGH THE CHILD IS HEIR, AS LONG AS HE IS A MINOR HE DOES NOT DIFFER FROM A SLAVE,DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE IS DESTINED TO INHERIT ALL. HE IS UNDER CHILD-TRAINING UNTIL THE FATHER CONSTITUTES HIM HEIR. THE COMPARISION IS TO THE JEWS WHO WHEN UNDER THE LAW WERE CHILDREN AND SERVANTS-NOT SONS-AND IN BONDAGE TO LEGALISTIC ELEMENTS, NOT FREE IN THE GRACE OF CHRIST.

CHRIST'S COMING WAS IN THE" FULLNESS OF TIME"WHEN THE LAW HAD FULLY DISCHARGED ITS TASK AS A SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US TO CHRIST. THEN GOD SENT HIS SON TO REDEEM US FROM THE LAW,THAT WE MIGHT HAVE THE PLACEMENT OF FULL GROWN SONS IN THE AGE OF GRACE.

PLACEMENT OF FULL ADULT SONS MEANS FULL DELIVERANCE FROM THE CHILD-SERVANT STATUS OF THE LEGAL AGE WITH THE SPIRIT SEALING THE FINAL RELATIONSHIP.

GALATIANS 3,4

THE LAWS PLACE IS SHOW MEN THEIR NEED OF A SAVIOR THUS TO BRING PEOPLE TO CHRIST

IF CONVERTS DO NOT SEE HOW EXCEEDINGLY SINFUL THEY ARE BY THE LAW AND THEIR DESPRITE NEED OF A SAVIOR(CHRIST) THEN THEY MOST LIKELY WILL BE FALSE CONVERTS

GOATS AMOUNG THE SHEEP

[Iryssa]

IF WE ARE TO BECOME JEWS THEN GOD IS A GOD TO THE JEWS ONLY.

JUST LIKE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT(NUM 14:11,22,23) EXPLAINED IN HEWBREWS 3:17-19 AND

CHAPTER 4 REFUSING TO ENTER INTO HIS REST

WHY WAS THE LAW GIVEN? IT WAS ADDED FOR THE DIVINE PURPOSE THAT IT MIGHT CLEARLY REVEAL SIN AS TRANSGRESSION OR PERSONAL GUILT. TO SHOW SINNFUL MAN'S OLD NATURE. SINCE THE LAW CON NOT KEEP MAN FROM SINNING,BUT ACTUALLY PROVOKED HIM TO SIN MORE.ITS INTRODUCTION, AFTER COVENANT OF GRACE WAS STRICKLY TEMPORARY "UNTIL THE SEED (CHRIST) SHOULD COME" THE "PROMISE" CHANNELED THROUGH HIM WOULD BE REALIZED. IN WAS ADDED TO CONCLUDE THAT ALL BOTH JEW AND GENTILE ARE UNDER SIN IT SHUT UP SINNFUL MEN TO GRACE AS THE ONLY WAY OF SALVATION.

IT MARKS A PERIOD OF CHILDTRAINING FOR THE JEW IT WAS TO TRAIN HIM AS A MINOR WITH CHILDISH "DOS" AND "DON'TS" TILL HE CAME TO THE SPIRITUAL ADULDHOOD IN CHRIST.

ALL BELIEVERS HAVE THE STATUS OF "SONS OF GOD" UNDER FAITH AND NOT MERE "CHILDREN" AS UNDER LAW.

ALTHOUGH THE CHILD IS HEIR, AS LONG AS HE IS A MINOR HE DOES NOT DIFFER FROM A SLAVE,DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE IS DESTINED TO INHERIT ALL. HE IS UNDER CHILD-TRAINING UNTIL THE FATHER CONSTITUTES HIM HEIR. THE COMPARISION IS TO THE JEWS WHO WHEN UNDER THE LAW WERE CHILDREN AND SERVANTS-NOT SONS-AND IN BONDAGE TO LEGALISTIC ELEMENTS, NOT FREE IN THE GRACE OF CHRIST.

CHRIST'S COMING WAS IN THE" FULLNESS OF TIME"WHEN THE LAW HAD FULLY DISCHARGED ITS TASK AS A SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US TO CHRIST. THEN GOD SENT HIS SON TO REDEEM US FROM THE LAW,THAT WE MIGHT HAVE THE PLACEMENT OF FULL GROWN SONS IN THE AGE OF GRACE.

PLACEMENT OF FULL ADULT SONS MEANS FULL DELIVERANCE FROM THE CHILD-SERVANT STATUS OF THE LEGAL AGE WITH THE SPIRIT SEALING THE FINAL RELATIONSHIP.

GALATIANS 3,4

THE LAWS PLACE IS SHOW MEN THEIR NEED OF A SAVIOR THUS TO BRING PEOPLE TO CHRIST

IF CONVERTS DO NOT SEE HOW EXCEEDINGLY SINFUL THEY ARE BY THE LAW AND THEIR DESPRITE NEED OF A SAVIOR(CHRIST) THEN THEY MOST LIKELY WILL BE FALSE CONVERTS

GOATS AMOUNG THE SHEEP

[nanasimmons]

I didn't know I was yelling until I was just told via e-mail..Sorry

I condem no one for keeping their consciences clean on the contrary I am considered a pagan heathen for keeping my liberties ,Sunday worship, celebrating Christs birth, ressurection day ect...Now therefore why tempt ye God... The gentiles were never put under the yoke that neither the disciples nor their fathers were able to bear Acts 15:6-11. Before Acts 9 the gentiles were not in the picture. Jesus came to the jews and only twice did He address a gentile. The twelve were sent to the jews. Galatians 2:3-8 speaks that even Titus was not compelled to be circumsiced this is interesting. My friend says that we are commanded to go baptize (not that I wouldn't love to do these things, for the most part I do) but if that were a true statement and there is no personal convictions reveiled to indivisuals then why does Paul say in 1 Cor 1:12-18

V.17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel. My problem in with those who judge those who have faith to touch, taste, consider and esteem all days holy unto the Lord ..

[Iryssa]

I didn't know I was yelling until I was just told via e-mail..Sorry

I condem no one for keeping their consciences clean on the contrary I am considered a pagan heathen for keeping my liberties ,Sunday worship, celebrating Christs birth, ressurection day ect...Now therefore why tempt ye God... The gentiles were never put under the yoke that neither the disciples nor their fathers were able to bear Acts 15:6-11. Before Acts 9 the gentiles were not in the picture. Jesus came to the jews and only twice did He address a gentile. The twelve were sent to the jews. Galatians 2:3-8 speaks that even Titus was not compelled to be circumsiced this is interesting. My friend says that we are commanded to go baptize (not that I wouldn't love to do these things, for the most part I do) but if that were a true statement and there is no personal convictions reveiled to indivisuals then why does Paul say in 1 Cor 1:12-18

V.17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel. My problem in with those who judge those who have faith to touch, taste, consider and esteem all days holy unto the Lord ..