Our Freewills

[Openly Curious]

I am seeking only to learn from this discussion on our "Freewills" and nothing else so if you can help me learn thank you in advance.

Openly Curious

[st. Worm]

Its a false concept. We are certainly free to choose what we want but the Bible teaches over and over again that we are dead in our sins and trespasses and that our wills are bound and therefore in our natural condition we cannot believe the Gospel. Luther's The Bondage of the Will is the definitive work on what we really are. Those who believe they are saved by their "free will" do not understand grace and underestimate the effect and the power of sin.

[EricH]

My take is that the only humans with absolutely Free Will were Adam and Eve. When they chose sin, Free Will was made impossible due to depravity

[Openly Curious]

Its a false concept. We are certainly free to choose what we want but the Bible teaches over and over again that we are dead in our sins and trespasses and that our wills are bound and therefore in our natural condition we cannot believe the Gospel. Luther's The Bondage of the Will is the definitive work on what we really are. Those who believe they are saved by their "free will" do not understand grace and underestimate the effect and the power of sin.

Hello 'st.worm'

I'm a little baffled here and do not know what you are referring to as being a false concept when I gave no concept. I know also that we do have freewills of our own and we can choose what we want to do in this life. I know also the scriptures you have mentioned about being dead in our trespasses and sins and that we were slaves to sin before salvation which I understand that to be I didn't have the freedom of choice to exercise my will because I was a slave to sin I was born in sin under the curse of the law.

So my freedom of choice to exercise my own freewill didn't come until after my salvation or at least that is my thoughts as I was set free and now have a choice. This being the case how does this freewill of ours line up with God's word and I don't even get the part about those who believe they are saved by their "free will" that you've talked about you'll have to excuse me if I am not clear in my thoughts I'm in an emotional storm right now so please overlook if I say something out of place if you can thanks

OC

[Openly Curious]

My take is that the only humans with absolutely Free Will were Adam and Eve. When they chose sin, Free Will was made impossible due to depravity

Hello 'EricH'

I like the way you put it concerning Adam and Eve before the fall took place as being "absolutely" free will. I agree with that cause they only knew good and therefore could only choose good in their wills. but it's after the fall their wills were taken captive and they then knew good and evil as their eyes were opened and they became slaves to sin as well as the whole human race. But is it that we get our freewills back when we get set free in Christ to freely and absolutely exercise our freewills once again and how does this if it does all line up with God's word. I think st.worm is a catholic I'm not sure of what he was referring to referencing Luther. I'm just trying to learn is all put 2 and 2 together hoping I'll finally come up with 4 for once. God bless

OC

[Marnie]

The fact the at the Great White Throne Judgment unrepentant sinners will be judged according to their works would indicate that man does indeed have a free will. The notion that man cannot have a free will because of G-d's forknowledge is a false conclusion; foreknowledge is passive, G-d simply knows the direction you will take, He does not force anybody to do anything.

The followings points prove both saints and sinners have the power of free choice and that G-d holds them responsible for their wrong or sinful choices:

Joshua 24:15--Choose you this day whom ye shall serve.

Prov.1:29-33--...did not choose the fear of the Lord.

Ps. 119:30, 173--I have chosen the way of truth.

Isa. 66:3--They have chosen their own ways.

Matt. 8:19--I will follow thee.

Matt. 16:24, 25--If any man will come after me.

Mark 3:35, 16:16--Whosoever will do the will of G-d.

John 7::17; 9:31--If any man will do his will, he shall knowof the doctrine...

John 12:26--If any man serve me, him will my Father honor

1Cor. 7:37--...hath power of HIS OWN WILL

Rev. 22:17--...whosoever will...

There are literally hundreds of similar passages in the Bible that support the doctrine of free moral agency. The words "choice," "will", etc. are used well over 4,000 times in both the OT and NT, each time illustrating a person making a decision.

The damning of those who do not repent of their sins and accept Christ does not nullify the idea of man's free will. Each class--the saved and unsaved--has a predetermined destiny, but on the journey there they are free to choose or not choose to do many things. To deny man's free will is to make G-d look like some kind cosmic puppeteer, pulling our strings. Sorry, I just don't see that in the Bible.

[st. Worm]

Hello OC.

Eric is correct as far as he goes about Adam and Eve who were not created with the taint of sin. When I say its a false concept I mean the way the term is used by most evangelicals today. They assume more or less a morally neutral free will that is able to chose to believe in Christ. However I would say even the regenerate or born again still do not have a perfect free will since sin still remains as the old Adam in us all continues to surface. If you really want to see Luther at his best I would still recommend "Bondage" as the classic work on the subject. It will be worth more than what you will ever hear anyone else say on the subject.

SW

[Openly Curious]

The fact the at the Great White Throne Judgment unrepentant sinners will be judged according to their works would indicate that man does indeed have a free will. The notion that man cannot have a free will because of G-d's forknowledge is a false conclusion; foreknowledge is passive, G-d simply knows the direction you will take, He does not force anybody to do anything.

The followings points prove both saints and sinners have the power of free choice and that G-d holds them responsible for their wrong or sinful choices:

Joshua 24:15--Choose you this day whom ye shall serve.

Prov.1:29-33--...did not choose the fear of the Lord.

Ps. 119:30, 173--I have chosen the way of truth.

Isa. 66:3--They have chosen their own ways.

Matt. 8:19--I will follow thee.

Matt. 16:24, 25--If any man will come after me.

Mark 3:35, 16:16--Whosoever will do the will of G-d.

John 7::17; 9:31--If any man will do his will, he shall knowof the doctrine...

John 12:26--If any man serve me, him will my Father honor

1Cor. 7:37--...hath power of HIS OWN WILL

Rev. 22:17--...whosoever will...

There are literally hundreds of similar passages in the Bible that support the doctrine of free moral agency. The words "choice," "will", etc. are used well over 4,000 times in both the OT and NT, each time illustrating a person making a decision.

The damning of those who do not repent of their sins and accept Christ does not nullify the idea of man's free will. Each class--the saved and unsaved--has a predetermined destiny, but on the journey there they are free to choose or not choose to do many things. To deny man's free will is to make G-d look like some kind cosmic puppeteer, pulling our strings. Sorry, I just don't see that in the Bible.

Hello Marnie,

well you certainly did give me much to chew on for a while I was intrigued for some reason by the scripture in 1 Cor.7:37 that said "having power of his own will" meaning in this case the person had it under control but some don't have it under control as we all know. but I see that we do have power and freedom of choice to do what we want or don't want to do. but I guess the struggle is our weaknesses not being strong enough to keep the power of our own free wills surpressed within us and because of lack of strenghth we carry out our own free wills which we have the power to do. I believe we do have free wills have all along and I don't think God made me a slave to him either when he saved me as I kinda get that notion from talking with some. It's getting the power over my will that is sticking me hard and heavy right now I'm getting no answers as of yet from the Lord and if I am I haven't recognized them yet so pray that I will come to see them. I've come to realize that our free wills are very powerful than even I could even dream they could be why this sudden realization all of a sudden I don't know perhaps it is due to the personal struggles I'm currently going through that are unsaid at present I do not know. I also get the part about predestination I've never had a problem with that one and see it just like you layed it all out there for me to see. In fact I agree with all that you have said as you are right on the money. But how does one get the power over their free wills and line them up with the word of God. bless you for taking the time to listen to an old woman rattle off.

OC

[Openly Curious]

Hello OC.

Eric is correct as far as he goes about Adam and Eve who were not created with the taint of sin. When I say its a false concept I mean the way the term is used by most evangelicals today. They assume more or less a morally neutral free will that is able to chose to believe in Christ. However I would say even the regenerate or born again still do not have a perfect free will since sin still remains as the old Adam in us all continues to surface. If you really want to see Luther at his best I would still recommend "Bondage" as the classic work on the subject. It will be worth more than what you will ever hear anyone else say on the subject.

SW

Thanks for the recommendation on the book called "Bondage" but I'm more the plain ole bible type it's more reliable as far as true truth goes and I can trust in it for the answers I seek. blessings

OC

[st. Worm]

"Thanks for the recommendation on the book called "Bondage" but I'm more the plain ole bible type it's more reliable as far as true truth goes and I can trust in it for the answers I seek. blessings

OC"

OC, I will only say that even though the Bible is inerrant and infallable we can learn much about the Bible from great teachers, men who devoted their entire lives to God's Word. Luther, though not inerrant, is certainly one of those men. I know I would certainly never pretend to be able to understand the Bible without men like him and others offering guidance and insight.

SW