Our Freewills

[st. Worm]

"Again, this is not a case of heresy, but sin."

You did not answer if heresy is sin. Can there be a worse sin than heresy?

SW

[chrismarc]

Butero said,

Chrismark

I found your original post and for the most part am in agreement with it,

regardless of the source.

Hard to disagree with the Truth eh.

[chrismarc]

Worm said,

many younger believers are not aware of the many heresies that are floating around out there and I would hope my comments would inspire them to study church history more since it has been forgotten in today's church.... without a study of history to supplement it, people are destined to fall for the same errors time and time again.

Throughout the history of the (Catholic) Church, councils of

bishops came together to address heresies. Worm is correct

in pointing this out, as these same ol heresies crop up every

so often and have already been condemned by the Church.

[chrismarc]

Butero said,

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While I didn't make that statement, it appears to me what she said is that if her Pastor tells her something that is not in the Bible, it amounts to nothing. In other words, the Pastor is not the final authority, the Bible is. You could also say the same thing about the Pope. If what he says is not in line with the Bible, what he says is of no value. The Bible trumps his position.

What is the pillar and ground of the Truth?

[st. Worm]

butero, if you really do not believe heresy is sin I don't know what to say at this point. The point of something being determined to be heresy is to condemn it as sin and very serious sin.

I think we are getting nowhere because we have entirely different views of the church. I have a high view of the church and its authority and its place in the life of the believer to dispense the means of grace and to maintain sound doctrine and to administer discipline if necessary. Certainly all of these things are found in the Bible and believers I think should embrace them.

You on the other hand believe the individual is king and you seem to not place much importance on the church and church government.

With that in mind it seems a waste of time to continue this.

SW

[Marnie]

Dang you guys are on a roll today. I am sorry that my real life interferes from time to time. Being a capitalist, I had to go and make some money.

Yes, the plan of salvation was prestinated from all eternity. The Cross, the Crucifixion, atoning death and resurrection of Christ were all part of G-d's eternal plan. I do NOT believe the Bible teaches people are predestinated to heaven or hell, but rather the plans of G-d are predestinated. G-d does not micromanage everybody's life, that is why we are held responsible for our actions done in the flesh.

Worm man, I apologize that I keep referring to you as a Calvinist. You are the big supporter of Luther, right? Look, I have read the writings of Luther and all the Reformers and I agree with much of what they wrote; I just don't buy it all. I think Luther, Calvin and so on were just dead wrong on certain points. They are men, after all.

To my Roman Catholic brother, who posts such eloquent posts, I have major difficulties with Catholic doctrine, much of which is not at all Biblical. I will not go so far as to use the "heresy" word as I am likely on the verge of being kicked off here. The doctrines you listed:

Infant baptism, Jesus as Eucharist, Communion of Saints,

Baptism=Born Again, Salvation not a one-time deal, authority

of the Church, etc...

are not Biblical doctines. The Bible does NOT teach that babies should be baptized, despite what Reform and RC churches practice. The Bible does not teach that water baptism saves anyone; it is an outward sign of an inward act of G-d. Salvation happens one time, it is a ONE TIME deal, though aspects of salvation may be considered as progressive from man's perspective. The authority of the Church does not rest in any man, the Pope included. Christ is the head of the Church, and any authority the Church exercises is derived from the Word of G-d. I recognize no other authority over me in ecclesiatical matters. You believe in the literal body and blood of Christ in the Communion elements; that in the Mass you are essentially crucifying Him all over again. That is just plain wrong, and totally goes against Scripture, which teaches Christ died once for all, period. I won't go any further on that point as I see I am on thin ice.

Butero, thanks for covering my butt.

[chrismarc]

Butero said,

It is true that there are certain heretical doctrines that are so far out that the vast majority of the church world agree they are cults. Examples would include the Jehovah's Witness, Scientology, Mormons, etc. Then there are other groups that are labeled heretics by many, such as the Catholic Church to which you belong. You would be surprised how many Christians consider your church a cult.

No i wouldn't be surprised at all, belonging to Christ's Holy Church

guarantees this persecution, just as Jesus promised. It also makes

sense that those who attack His Church have been deceived. Btw,

how many churches did Christ found? Which came 1st: the Bible or

the Church?

Bottom line is, we all have different opinions of what a heretic is. I ere on the side of caution. I don't label anyone a cult or heretic unless they deny the diety of Christ, or the very basic tenets of the faith.

Yet you believe God can sin.

[st. Worm]

Marnie says:

The doctrines you listed:

Infant baptism, Jesus as Eucharist, Communion of Saints,

Baptism=Born Again, Salvation not a one-time deal, authority

of the Church, etc...

are not Biblical doctines.

SW says:

Dear soul, you are truly out of control. I don't wish to get into a baptism thread right now but for you to say that the New Testament does not teach the authority of the church means you have skipped some significant portions of your Bible. To say church authority and discipline are not biblical doctrines and not taught in scripture is beyond laughable.

[chrismarc]

Marnie said,

To my Roman Catholic brother, who posts such eloquent posts, I have major difficulties with Catholic doctrine, much of which is not at all Biblical. The doctrines you listed:

Infant baptism, Jesus as Eucharist, Communion of Saints,

Baptism=Born Again, Salvation not a one-time deal, authority

of the Church, etc...are not Biblical doctines.

By you saying so, does not make it so.

They're all in Scripture. If you or anyone is

seriously interested in seeing the fullness of

Truth, i'd be glad to explain our Catholic beliefs

in separate threads as per Eric's request.

[st. Worm]

"It is possible to believe crazy doctrine and still not be guilty of transgressing the law. I don't see why that is so hard to understand."

You must be kidding. Name any heresy you want and it involves a transgression of the decalogue usually the first commandment at the very least. In fact I would go so far to say that all bad doctrine whether heresy or not is sin.