Our Freewills

[st. Worm]

Eric,

Just curious but please let me know if I am out of bounds by saying that Arianism and other forms of anti-trinitarianism and Pelagianism are heresies. Certainly church councils from a variety of views have all properly considered those heresies. It seems to me not to be able to acknowledge that makes the board something other than a Christian forum.

Thanks!

SW

[EricH]

Eric,

Just curious but please let me know if I am out of bounds by saying that Arianism and other forms of anti-trinitarianism and Pelagianism are heresies. Certainly church councils from a variety of views have all properly considered those heresies. It seems to me not to be able to acknowledge that makes the board something other than a Christian forum.

Thanks!

SW

Worm,

It is true that things like "anti-trinitarianism" are considered to be heretical in nature. You are not off base there. However, on a board like this is is too easy to let that label fly when we disagree with people. The label is purjorative. It carries with it an emotional context that poison people's view of individuals. For me, it is best to show how a person's position does not line up with scripture. If you clearly show that their position does not line up with scipture, readers will see that and understand the person is in doctrinal error. If you do not do a good job in showing it, labeling them as a heretic is just an easy way out of proving a person wrong without really proving it (if you know what I mean)

At the end of the day, if we believe a person is in error, a label will not convert them to the truth. What will is the power of the Word of God as energized by the Holy Spirit. As we argue from the word, that is where the power lies. If the word can't convince them, a label will not

My opinion anyway

As a side note, I find it best as a mod to head things off before they get out of control.

[Marnie]

What about doctrine that is in Bible, but not believed by all?

Example please?

I believe the Bible is what it is: G-d's revealed Word to His children,

written for all men to understand.

If all understand, why don't we all believe the same?

Re-read my statement: it was written for all men TO understand. I can't answer why some people dont understand the plain meaning of Scripture. I know that many Christians would rather take the lazy approach and have other people tell them what to believe. It's easier that way, you see? You dont have to think. As a Roman Catholic, your church was notorious for keeping the bible from the common folk and told that only the priest can understand it. Of course, that is utter nonsense and most right thinking Christians know this.

This is pretty common in other areas of life as well. People have forgotten how think for themselves.

In the final analysis, though, we stand naked before G-d, and what my pastor taught me, if it's not in the Bible, amounts to nothing.

[st. Worm]

OC says:

my scriptural basis is Romans 12:3 "according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" for these are my father's words and I believe them. If you think me a heretic so be it for I think things also. I think as a teacher you may be falling terribly in winning a student but now I think you lost one for good."

SW says:

OC, I have not accepted you as a student so therefore I have not really lost you. Also the verse you quote to prove that every person has been granted faith you have taken completely out of context. The issue Paul is talking about here is faith in correlation to the spiritual gifts imparted to the believers he is addressing. He is not talking about justifying faith here at all. You should not just pull individual verses out without considering the context in which they are written. We are not saved because we reach a certain level of faith.

SW

[EricH]

OC says:

my scriptural basis is Romans 12:3 "according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" for these are my father's words and I believe them. If you think me a heretic so be it for I think things also. I think as a teacher you may be falling terribly in winning a student but now I think you lost one for good."

SW says:

OC, I have not accepted you as a student so therefore I have not really lost you. Also the verse you quote to prove that every person has been granted faith you have taken completely out of context. The issue Paul is talking about here is faith in correlation to the spiritual gifts imparted to the believers he is addressing. He is not talking about justifying faith here at all. You should not just pull individual verses out without considering the context in which they are written. We are not saved because we reach a certain level of faith.

SW

Thats right, the context of Romans 12 is the use of spritual gifts by believers, not salvation

[st. Worm]

"As a side note, I find it best as a mod to head things off before they get out of control."

I can appreciate that! But honestly I was not trying to flame. I think many younger believers are not aware of the many heresies that are floating around out there and I would hope my comments would inspire them to study church history more since it has been forgotten in today's church. I found it of great value to study Augustine's response to Pelagius and Luther's to Erasmus. Bible study is wonderful, but without a study of history to supplement it, people are destined to fall for the same errors time and time again.

[Marnie]

I was more than willing to hear what you had to say and respond with my take. I expected you to do the same. I find I learn more in these types of discussions, rather than avoiding them because they get hard.

Right. And I do owe you an apology. I didn't mean it to be a personal attack, and dont consider it so, I was dealing with a client and you got in my line of fire. G-d is patient and always merciful, I am not yet. So I am sorry to have offended you, but am surprised you didn't delete it! Bless your heart.

I also learn much in these discussions. The problem I have with Calvinists (I get the impression you are one and most here at Worthy) is that they esteem the doctrine of Calvin to the level of Scripture. I cannot and will not argue apart from the Bible. It is one thing to quote good sources, and surely Calvin is a good source, but it is another thing to simply quote from the same tired playbook. I would like have a discussion on this topic and hear from you, not from Calvin or Luther; they're dead and obviously you are intelligent and informed. And that goes for the rest you posting to this thread. OC is looking for our thoughts. If she wanted theological dissertations, she could google it and find pages and pages of dry as dust stuff. Doctrinal one-upmanship is so transparent and dull.

No discussion is too hard, by the way. The day I can't give an answer is the day I resign from my job and go to work for Wal Mart.

[Marnie]

"As a side note, I find it best as a mod to head things off before they get out of control."

I can appreciate that! But honestly I was not trying to flame. I think many younger believers are not aware of the many heresies that are floating around out there and I would hope my comments would inspire them to study church history more since it has been forgotten in today's church. I found it of great value to study Augustine's response to Pelagius and Luther's to Erasmus. Bible study is wonderful, but without a study of history to supplement it, people are destined to fall for the same errors time and time again.

So, you're talking predestined to fall for the same errors, right?

You are 100% right...a knowledge of history is essential, but supplemental to the bible, correct?

[st. Worm]

"he problem is St. Worm, everyone has a different idea of what a cult is and what a heretical doctrine is. I totally reject Calvanism,"

I keep seeing this Calvinism term thrown about in response to my posts, but ladies and gentlemen I am not a Calvinist. Augustine and Luther taught the idea of man's depravity and bondage of the will before Calvin was born in the case of Augustine. Also, I still find the term heretic useful but we do not ourselves determine what is a heresy. That is done by the church.

[st. Worm]

Marnie, do you think the Cross was pre-destined? If it wasn't, could not have something occurred, some unplanned event that could have stopped this wonderful event from taking place thereby frustrating God's attempt to provide for our salvation?

SW