Saints in tribulation

[wordsower]

Most people who preach no rapture think it is some sort of escapism theory but really that isn't appropriate since christians have been and are martyred still for their faith, just not in the USA.

I believe it is a reward for the righteous, since we will be reigning with Christ on the new earth I believe He will use the 7 years to prepare us for that task. The bible plainly says He will return in the clouds with His saints.

If I'm wrong of course I'd rather die for Christ than spend eternity in hell for rejecting Him!

I prayed for wisdom about this subject since I didn't know what to believe and God showed me the parable of the 10 virgins and I understood the rapture to be for the church and the five un wise virgins not being ready.

Blessings

[larryt]

Hi Buck,

The "rapture theory" has, it seems, been around for a very long time. But I only heard of it quite recently. To be honest, I really struggle with it. I quite believe that we are in "end-times" now as the argument that the technology has never existed before now for the fulfillment of all the prophesies seems far too logical to ignore.

Actually the "rapture theory" has not been around for a very long time.

It may come as a surprise but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 C.E. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned it before 1830 (though a sentence in Pseudo-Dionysius in about 500 C.E. could be so interpreted). Of course, those who feel the origin of the teaching is in the Bible would say that it ceased being taught for some unknown reason at the close of the apostolic age only to reappear in 1830. But if the doctrine were so clearly stated in Scripture, it seems incredible that no one should have referred to it before the 19th century.

from http://askelm.com/essentials/ess025.htm

A young man by the name of Morgan Edwards in 1788 wrote an essay for an escatology class in which he came up with a pre-millenial return of Christ. After this Irving and Darby and Scofield bolstered by 15 year old Margaret MacDonald's visions gave rise to the present day doctrine.

Why is it that the saints cannot be here when God pours out His wrath. Noah was shielded for the wrath as was Lot.

The first resurrection happens at the end of the Tribulation. I find nothing to indicate a pre-first resurrection.

LT

[eric]

I'm with you larryt. Tribulation is happening in some places in the world as I type, in Nth Africa SE asia,indonesia, middle east.

people keep talking about the seven year trib or the three and a half year trib, but nobody ever tells us when it is going to happen or when it's going to end.

Matt.24:15-24.

KJV.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Jesus was talking to His jewish chrisian friends in this passage. Okay I'm certainly not a pretorist, but that did happen in 70 AD when the temple was taken over and the jews that weren't killed, were wither taken captive or scattered.

Okay, I'm not saying that history won't repeat itself, because I believe it will, but Jesus said there will be great tribulation, when? Read verse 15. So in order for that all to happen, it would seem to me that a third temple has to be built.

There is nowhere in the NT that mentions THE great tribulation. great tribulation occurred in 70AD, but, when Jesus was talking to His disciples, that age never ended until His ascention after his death and I believe that was the start of a new age. That was the start of the new covenant.

I am open to discussion.

eric

[rollinTHUNDER]

A young man by the name of Morgan Edwards in 1788 wrote an essay for an escatology class in which he came up with a pre-millenial return of Christ. After this Irving and Darby and Scofield bolstered by 15 year old Margaret MacDonald's visions gave rise to the present day doctrine.

Hi larry,

Do you think this argument proves anything? Are you suggesting that the Lord should have revealed the unknown mysteries in the beginning, instead of the end? And to think that it was only about 500 short years ago, that the whole world thought the world was flat, that is until some nut came along by the name of Christopher Columbus. And when Daniel wanted to know the outcome of his prophecies, he was ordered to close the books and go his way because knowledge wasn't to be increased until the end.

Why is it that the saints cannot be here when God pours out His wrath. Noah was shielded for the wrath as was Lot.

Noah didn't go through God's wrath. He was floating above the destruction that was going on beneath him. In fact, when the rains finally stopped, the ark was higher than the highest mountain on the earth. And Lot also escaped God's wrath. In fact, the destroying angels were not even permitted to destroy the cities until Lot had made it to safety.

The first resurrection happens at the end of the Tribulation. I find nothing to indicate a pre-first resurrection.

Actually, the first resurrection began almost 2000 years ago when Jesus, the Head of the body of Christ was resurrected, and it won't officially end until we, the body of Christ are resurrected and return with Him to rule and reign for 1000 years. Then the dead unbelievers will be raised to face the Great White Throne judgment and the second death. I hope this helps.

Cheers!

[larryt]

A young man by the name of Morgan Edwards in 1788 wrote an essay for an escatology class in which he came up with a pre-millenial return of Christ. After this Irving and Darby and Scofield bolstered by 15 year old Margaret MacDonald's visions gave rise to the present day doctrine.

Hi larry,

Do you think this argument proves anything? Are you suggesting that the Lord should have revealed the unknown mysteries in the beginning, instead of the end? And to think that it was only about 500 short years ago, that the whole world thought the world was flat, that is until some nut came along by the name of Christopher Columbus. And when Daniel wanted to know the outcome of his prophecies, he was ordered to close the books and go his way because knowledge wasn't to be increased until the end.

Why is it that the saints cannot be here when God pours out His wrath. Noah was shielded for the wrath as was Lot.

Noah didn't go through God's wrath. He was floating above the destruction that was going on beneath him. In fact, when the rains finally stopped, the ark was higher than the highest mountain on the earth. And Lot also escaped God's wrath. In fact, the destroying angels were not even permitted to destroy the cities until Lot had made it to safety.

The first resurrection happens at the end of the Tribulation. I find nothing to indicate a pre-first resurrection.

Actually, the first resurrection began almost 2000 years ago when Jesus, the Head of the body of Christ was resurrected, and it won't officially end until we, the body of Christ are resurrected and return with Him to rule and reign for 1000 years. Then the dead unbelievers will be raised to face the Great White Throne judgment and the second death. I hope this helps.

Cheers!

Hi rollin,

To answer your first point about the continuing expansion of scripture understanding, I believe that when John was given the book of Revelation he was told not to seal it up. As to the world being flat what does that have to do with scripture? Most scientists believe that the earth is billions of years old. Most scientists believe(heres a shocker) that the sun is a "nuclear furnace." There is a growing body of scientists that believe that the sun is a giant electric arc fueled by interplanetary plasma. If people just believed the bible they would have known that the earth was not flat. It was just this study of the Is 40:22(circle can also mean sphere) that some believe that lead Columbus to the idea that the earth was round. Point is that it is in the scriptures and if we dig we can find, knock and it shall be opened unto you.

I did not say that Noah went through/ experienced the wrath of God. He was shielded from it in the ark. Question: How high was the highest mountain on the earth when the floods came and how do you know? 500' 1000' 5000' 20000'? Think about Gen 10:25 (after Noah) before you answer.

In my bible it specifically names an event as the first resurrection.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Now the question is if those that are resurrected at the beginning of the tribulation is the first resurrection then the saints that died during the tribulation are resurrected in the ?second? resurrection? That doesn't make sense.

Other questions that need answers:

1. When is the last trumpet that Paul speaks of?

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

2. What is the difference if any between the Day of Christ, the Day of the Lord, and the Day of God?

3. In 2Thes. 2 1-12 What event is Paul referring to.

LT

[rollinTHUNDER]

As to the world being flat what does that have to do with scripture? Most scientists believe that the earth is billions of years old. Most scientists believe(heres a shocker) that the sun is a "nuclear furnace." There is a growing body of scientists that believe that the sun is a giant electric arc fueled by interplanetary plasma. If people just believed the bible they would have known that the earth was not flat. It was just this study of the Is 40:22(circle can also mean sphere) that some believe that lead Columbus to the idea that the earth was round.

My point is, as I often say, God is not bound by what men may believe.

Point is that it is in the scriptures and if we dig we can find, knock and it shall be opened unto you.

I agree, God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

I gotta end this here so I can go cut my lawn. I'm leaving out early in the morning to look for some higher ground. I'm interested in looking at property that's above sea level and affordable in Tennessee, Alabama and Georgia, but I only have about three days to look. Anybody here know of any good places I should look?

God bless you brother

[passiondaze]

I believe the Scriptures prove there will be the rapture of the church and the second coming of Jesus. I believe these are two separate events.

Matthew 24:36-42

36: No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but

only the Father.

37: As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

38: For in the days before the flood, people were eating, and drinking, marrying and

giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;

39: and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them

all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

40: Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

41: Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42: Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

I believe this to be the rapture of the church.

Also, in Zechariah 14:5: You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel.

You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of

Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the

holy ones with Him.

Revelation 19:14 The armies of heaven were following Him, riding on white horses and

dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

I believe we (the church) have already been raptured and we are coming to the earth with Jesus then. I too have prayed for wisdom and have done a lot of studying on the rapture and end times. I do not consider myself an expert though. If any of you disagree, please explain.

[other one]

Pray for the best,

Plan for the worst,

Expect the unexpected......

My philosophy about this world, and it includes this subject.

Sam

[eric]

Quote LOG yesterday 02.02 AM.

Those who say Christians are not taken in any rapture misunderstand what THE tribulation to come is all about.

I think Iv'e asked you this question before, which THE great tribulation are you referring to.

The word tribulation is mentioned 20 times in the NT. Not once is it prefixed with the definite article THE, so out of the twenty tmes it it mentioned in the NT, which one are you referring to. the one that Jesus mentioned in about 30 AD occurred in 70 AD when Nebuckadnezza destroyed the temple and took some of the jews, of which Daniel was one, captive, killed many, and the rest scattered. So when is this 7 year tribulation that you speak of going to happen and is it in the kjv version. Sorry LOG but I can't find it. Could you please show me where it is and thank you.

[billie]

Eric, it's in Revelation.