Born Again?

[chrismarc]

seraphimbride said,

Is it possible to be considered being "born again" already.

If you were baptized, you were born again.

[chrismarc]

seraphimbride said,

I acutally went to confession before Easter. It was the first time in 24 years.

It's like I can feel God calling me to walk closer to him, and that's all I want to do.

God bless you for going back to confession.

Through the grace of confession your sins are

forgiven and you've renewed your baptismal

promises. Now do as Jesus says, " Go and sin

no more. " And to walk even closer to Jesus, go

to Mass and receive the Body and Blood of Jesus

in Holy Eucharist (the ultimate Altar Call)!

Edited April 26, 2006 by chrismarc

[rfw]

chrismarc, there's no power in the tub. The power and presence of God comes only in relationship, and while baptism is required of those who follow Christ in faith, it has no saving power itself. It is simply the first step of obedience for those who have already repented of sin and received God's free gift of eternal life. Until repentance and faith have happened, all baptism does is get you wet. Peter at Pentecost (Acts 2) did not tell the crowds to rush out and get in the river first. He told them "Repent and be baptized everyone of you into the of Jesus Christ..."v38

In v41, the Bible says, "Then those who gladly received his word were baptized;..."

Those who received the Word, repented at the command and followed in obedience to find life. Without this holy order, there is no salvation, no matter how many times you get wet.

In Acts 16:25-34, the Philippian jailer, faced with a massive jail break, believed it was best to kill himself, till Paul called out to him. When he saw the prisoners still in place, he begged Paul and Silas, "Sirs what must I do to be saved?" "So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

This was a call to faith, not a call to agree to historical facts. Only in repentance did the jailer find salvation.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 Even the good work of baptism or church attendance falls under this ban. It is only by faith in Christ alone that we find salvation. Without the relationship forged in agreement with God about who we are, who He is, and how we are to come to Him, all we have is "religion". And religion without relationship is a dry, dead thing, fit only for the fire.

[EricH]

]seraphimbride said,

My question is what does "born again" mean to yall.

Jesus told Nicodemus, "You must be born again" (John 3:7). What did our Lord mean?

Modern Fundamentalist and Evangelical Christians, while agreeing with Catholic Christians

that a spiritual regeneration by the Holy Spirit (or the "new birth") is necessary for salvation

(e.g. John 3:3-8; 2 Cor 5:17; Titus 3:5), generally disagree that the Sacrament (or what

some call "ordinance") of Baptism is the means by which the Holy Spirit regenerates and

saves the person, and all sins committed prior to Baptism are forgiven and washed away

by the power of Christ (John 3:5; Acts 2:38, 22:16; Rom 6:1ff; 1 Cor 6:11; Gal 3:27;

Eph 5:26f; Col 2:11ff; 1 Peter 3:21;).

Many of these modern Fundamentalists and Evangelicals suggest that accepting or

"receiving Christ" as one's "personal Lord and Savior" by faith alone is what our Lord

meant in John chapter 3. The Sacrament of Baptism is seen as merely a "symbolic"

gesture with no inherent spiritual efficacy.

Catholics, while not denying the importance of the "personal relationship" with Jesus Christ

(you cannot get much more personal than receiving Christ in the Holy Eucharist) and

clearly emphasizing a holy life after Baptism, understand the Gospel text on "born again"

as a reference to the Sacrament of Baptism. Catholics note our Lord's words that one must

be "born of WATER AND THE SPIRIT" as clearly equated by Jesus himself with the

phrase "born again" (compare verses John 3:3,5,7). The surrounding context of the first 4

chapters of John's Gospel also show that by "water and the Spirit" that water BAPTISM is

what our Lord meant (cf. John 1:29ff; 3:22ff; 4:1ff), which Sacrament was instituted by

Christ himself at the Great Commission where he commanded Baptism in the name of the

Blessed Trinity (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:16). This is shortly followed by St. Peter the

Apostle's command to be baptized in order to receive the forgiveness of sins and the gift of

the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). Catholics accept the plain and literal meaning of the biblical texts.

The Catholic understanding of Baptism is also the unanimous teaching of the earliest

Christians who immediately followed the apostles. Every Christian, all the Church Fathers,

bishops and saints who lived after the apostles (and some while the apostles were still alive),

interpreted our Lord's words in John chapter 3 that to be "born again" and "born of water

and the Spirit" refers to the Sacrament of Baptism. There are no exceptions. And Protestant

scholars frankly admit this fact (note the relevent sections on Baptism in Reformed /

Presbyterian scholar Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church, Anglican scholar

J.N.D. Kelly's Early Christian Doctrines, and Lutheran scholar Jaroslav Pelikan's The

Christian Tradition).

Edited by moderator: we do not allow links to sites that offer an apologetic for Catholic doctrines

The problem with your interpretation is that Nicodemus could not have been aware of Catholic baptism at this time, yet Jesus held him accountable for not knowing "these things".

Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?

John 3:10 NASB

Nicodemus as the leading teacher of the Torah should have understood Jesus reference from reading Torah alone.

You have read Catholic doctrine into the text rather than letting the text speak for itself and asking the question: what would the water and the spirit have meant to Nicodemus, and what would he have been aware of that Jesus could have held him accountable for not knowing?

Ezekiel 36:25-27 gives us the anwer:

Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NASB

Jesus was clearly referring to this passage and holding Nicodemus accountable for understanding its implications. In the OT when water and spirit are used together it pictures a cleansing, and most improtantly the creation of a new heart. It pictures a new begetting of God's Spirit into the individual. They no longer have hearts of stone, but hearts that desire to do God's will.

Most protestant scholars do not agree with you. Schaff and Kelly are frequently quoted by Catholics as representative of protestant theology, but they are not. They are in the minority.

[WayneB]

Exactly Eric.

Here is the rub.

The Roman Catholic Church wrongly teaches that water baptism somehow confers sanctifying grace along with six other Sacraments, which includes Marriage, the Eucharist, Last Rites, Confirmation and Penance. So it isn't just about "water baptism" when this topic pops up with our Catholic brethren, as evidenced by the last few posts by chrismarc. It is really about ALL seven Sacraments, which are believed by the Roman Catholic Church to confer sanctifying grace.

Water baptism does NOT confer sanctifying GRACE but rather it testifies to that FAITH. It may be a reflection of HIS grace but NOT a substitute. That is clear in God's Word when studied in context.

Augustine of Hippo (354-430) wrote in regards to the baptism of Jesus...

"Why did the Son of God appear as a man and the Holy Spirit as a dove? Because the Son of God came to show humility a pattern for living, whereas the Holy Spirit made his appearance to bestow the gift which enables excellent living. Moreover, both appearances surely came in a visible manner for the sake of carnal eyes. For we must pass by degrees through the visible sacraments from those things which are seen with the physical eyes to those things which are understood spiritually by the mind. For human words make a sound and then pass away. But when the divine Word is expressed, that which is signified by the words does not pass away." Questions, Question 43, Cetedoc 0250

What I understand Augustine to express here is the difference between the temporal and the spiritual. When he speaks of "visible sacraments", I believe he means "religious rituals or ceremony" of which Water Baptism in one. We limit our vision when we view God's sanctifying GRACE through the eyes of our flesh rather than the eyes of our spirit.

As I wrote some time ago...

The issue with me is simple: there was need for only ONE Sacrifice of a blemish-free Lamb and that was Jesus Christ who willingly laid down His life for all men, Jew and Gentile alike. Therefore, I do not believe in the continuous and recurring Sacrifice of the Mass or any of the other Seven Sacraments as confering sanctifying grace.

Furthermore, there is NO penance that would adequately free me of my sin...only by the Blood of the Lamb am I forgiven and free. Lastly, there is no mediator between God and man other than Jesus Christ Himself who lives within me so I confess my sin directly to the Father through the Blood of the Lamb.

I have a relationship with Jesus Christ but not through the observance of the seven Sacraments but because "Christ lives in me." [Galatians 2:19-21] I have been baptised in water BUT that was an outward sign only... a means to express my FAITH in Christ, my Redeemer. I have been married for 26 years and recognize that my marriage to my wife is sacred and pleasing to the Lord but I do not consider it to confer sanctifying grace, which is where I differ with the teaching of the RCC.

See the rub?

If our friend is honest, he will point out that water baptism is BUT one of the seven Sacraments that his Church teaches as confering sanctifying grace... sort of a punchlist of things you have to do in order to earn your salvation.

What does the Word of God say? Read Ephesian 2:8,9. Be like a Berean! Study and meditate on Holy Scripture DAILY and ask the Holy Spirit to lead you into a TRUE understanding of God's Word. Do not just take our word for it. Once you read God's Word in CONTEXT to the whole, all the pieces FIT and you come to realize... God did it ALL. Our redemption, sanctification and untimately our salvation. It is ALL HIS work. Praise God!

...and nothing can replace the Blood of the Lamb! Nothing!

Believe GOD! Simple.

Too bad this gravitated to just another water baptism thread.

May the Lord Bless you richly,

Wayne

1 Peter 1:3-6a

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

In this you greatly rejoice...

[Candi770]

Chrismarc,

That Long quote came from John 3:1-16(NLT): I think you can look it up and find it.

I believe it to mean we must be born naturally-coming out of mothers water and spiritually. Our first birth in natural, second birth is spiritual. Nothing to do with water baptism.

[deershot]

Candi, you hit the nail on the head. The water means a natural birth and born of the spirit means to be saved.

There is no salvation in being baptised. It is just a symbol of our following Jesus.

If a person must be baptised to get to heaven, what would happen if someone ask Jesus to come into

there life and save them but died before they could get baptised. Would they not go to heaven?

[JesusisGod2]

seraphimbride said,

Is it possible to be considered being "born again" already.

If you were baptized, you were born again.

Hi Chris,

Actually to be born again has nothing to do with our baptism at all, but it has everything to do with Christ baptism by John the baptist.

When Christ was baptized by John, the sin of the entire world was passed from John (representing the high priest) onto Jesus.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Then Jesus was sacrificed upon the cross and bore our penalty and cleansed us.

The sin of the world had to be passed onto Jesus before He could be offered as our sacrifice.

This is what is meant by the following:

1 John 5:6

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

And

1 John 5:7-9

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

I am doing a study on the tabernacle and it really a beautiful picture of Jesus and His ministry.

In brief the tabernacle had fine woven linen as walls surrounding it and its entrance or gate was fine woven linen with blue scarlet and purple threads.

White linen represented the word of God, the bible in its entirety both old and new (even though the new was not written yet)

The blue thread represents Christ baptism by which He took the sin of the entire world upon Himself.

The red or scarlet thread represents the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, by which He bore our punishment and cleansed us from our sin.

The purple thread tells us that the one who accomplishes this is God Himself, the King of kings, Jesus Christ.

This is the faith one must have to be born again.

1) We must believe that Jesus has taken all our sins upon Himself by His baptism (Blue thread)

2) We must believe that He has cleansed us from all our sins and bore our punishment (Red or Scarlet Thread)

3) We must believe that Jesus is God and has been raised from the dead......He lives (Purple thread)

and then we enter into His tabernacle. This is also at the entrance to the holy of Holies.

When we understand and believe this you cannot help but cry out to God and give Him praise, by believing in this we have become born again.

This is the simplicity of the gospel, it has nothing to do with what we have done, but has everything to do with what He has done.

When we are baptized it has nothing to do with our salvation, but it is a testimony to the world that we believe that Jesus came by the water and the blood.

This is why it says believe and be baptized.

When we believe that Jesus by His baptism took our sin upon Himself. and on the cross His blood was shed for us bearing our penalty and cleansing us from our sin. We must believe that God has raised Him from the dead, And believe that He is God Himself. We are born again.

This will fill your heart with joy and purpose and humility, to God be all the glory through Jesus Christ who bore our sin and was sacrificed for our cleansing and penalty.

And after we have been born again we are baptized as a testimony that we believe in all that Jesus has done for us. We don't get baptized and then believe, we must first believe and then be baptized.

Gods plan for our salvation is so wonderful and so beautiful and so simple, however, He will not share His glory in salvation with anything or anyone including our baptism.

I hope I haven't come across as too strong, it is difficult to translate thoughts into type.

God bless and seraphimbride, if you believe this then confess it to God and after you confess it to God tell others of the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

In Jesus

kevin

[chrismarc]

deershot said,

Candi, you hit the nail on the head. The water means a natural birth and born of the spirit

means to be saved.There is no salvation in being baptised. It is just a symbol of our following Jesus.

Christ speaks in John 3:5 as being "born of water and the Spirit." In Greek, this phrase is,

literally, "born of water and Spirit," indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than

"born of water and of the Spirit," as though it meant two different births

[chrismarc]

rfw said,

chrismarc, there's no power in the tub. The power and presence of God comes only in

relationship, and while baptism is required of those who follow Christ in faith, it has no

saving power itself.

i'll put my trust in the teachings of Christ and His followers in the

early Church on the necessity of Baptism to make it to the

Kingdom.

"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he

is born of water and the Spirit." (John 3:5)