Opus Dei Questions

[Constant]

I wasn't sure where to post this but here it is. Please don't delete and please don't bash. I really want some input on this and thoughts.

I am currently reading The Davinci Code and I came across a subject on the Opus Dei. It struck my curiosity so I looked it up on the I-net. Very disturbing at first but I am wondering how inflicting pain on yourself does good? I am also wondering the opinions of Christians and our Catholic friends on this.

Thank you!

[mikado5001]

They only thing I know is that they are a bit secretive. A personal prelature of Pope John Paul the Second. I guess thats the Vatican's way of saying A-ok. Only just now starting to publicly discuss the organization to counter publicity for The Davinci Code movie. Ironically, I think, a phone kiosk across the street from their headquarters in New York City, 34st and Lex ave, has a poster for the movie. I had to chuckle at that. Don't believe EVERYTHING you read in The Davinci Code. And try to see it for what it is. A pleasant work of fiction. Nothing more than a play-along diversion.

[Leonard]

Opus Dei is 'secretive'? Then they're the only 'secretive' organization in the world which publishes their membership list, has a public address for all their headquarters, sponsors 'World Catholic Youth Days' etc.

Opus Dei is founded by a group of very wealthy Roman Catholics for the express purposes of: 1. Keeping the Roman Catholic distinctives, and 2. Finding ways of keeping Roman Christians active in their church instead of drifting off into functional atheism, or into Protestant churches.

I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about when you connect Opus Dei with 'inflicting pain on yourself........' That certainly NOT part of Opus Dei. Maybe that's something Brown put in the Davinci Code? I don't know, I'm waiting to read it until I can pick it up at Goodwill for a dime! But DO remember, the Davinci Code IS A NOVEL.......

[Smalcald]

Well there are several RCC groups of this nature; the Legionaries of Christ do use some methods of inflicting some minor physical pain to remind them of the sacrifice of Christ, I am not sure if Opus Die does this also.

Obviously the Dan Brown book the DeVinci code is fiction, but it is also the work of Satan. Its true intent is to lead non-believers away from an understanding and knowledge of who Jesus Christ was it sows seeds for the anti-Christ due to its huge popularity and anti-Christ messages. The essence of salvation for all human kind is the crucifixion and physical resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. Anything, fiction or not, which casts doubt on this fact of history, is the work of Satan, as this one fact of history is the one thing which can destroy the devil and death itself.

[Constant]

Well there are several RCC groups of this nature; the Legionaries of Christ do use some methods of inflicting some minor physical pain to remind them of the sacrifice of Christ, I am not sure if Opus Die does this also.

Obviously the Dan Brown book the DeVinci code is fiction, but it is also the work of Satan. Its true intent is to lead non-believers away from an understanding and knowledge of who Jesus Christ was it sows seeds for the anti-Christ due to its huge popularity and anti-Christ messages. The essence of salvation for all human kind is the crucifixion and physical resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. Anything, fiction or not, which casts doubt on this fact of history, is the work of Satan, as this one fact of history is the one thing which can destroy the devil and death itself.

They do some wear a belt around their thigh with wires poking into them for two hours per day, they whip themselves with rope, etc.... No clue why. You are more than welcomed to look it up to understand it better.

[Smalcald]

Yup that is what I had read that they do.

My bet is that the spiritual argument is much like those guys in the Philippines who actually nail themselves to a cross to conform themselves to the literal pain Jesus felt. Really fasting would be along these same lines.

I don't see anything in scripture warranting any of those sorts of activity though with the exception of fasting. The main problem from what I see is that it forgets something very basic. True pain and suffering is neither, if we choose it. True pain, true suffering, the true cross is something that all human beings are handed at some point in their lives, not something they plan and practice. At that time then we will be put to the test, whether we give ourselves totally to Christ or not, not in some exercise we planned.

[Leonard]

Well, I've never heard from anything like an official source that Opus Dei certified such a practice, but then again, the subject has never really interested me. I've met a few Opus Dei folks; they were very devout, and well-heeled financially, but not WEIRD!!!

Then again, the Old Testament Prophets sometimes wore 'sack cloth'. Uck!! How scratchy! Maybe it's for a purpose along those same lines.....? I mean as long as you're not doing yourself actual bodily injury, I can't see any harm in it, and we do have the Old Testament 'sack cloth' connection.........

[DaniJ87]

My Pastor was preaching on the DaVinci code the last two weeks in church, showing us how all of Dan Brown's claims are completely unsupported by ANY data....

just about everything that he says is ficticious, (going along with the "FICTION" genre) or else, unsupported...

According to my pastor, Dan Brown's three main claims, (though he makes many, many more) are:

1. The Jesus we have in the Bible wasn't who He said He was...

2. Christianity as we have it today is a lie;

3. The Bible contains just the gospels that were "liked", and that there are around 80 other "gospels" around, that are equally valid..

OK. My pastor went on to smash all of these points....

1. Dan Brown proposes NO data to back up this point; a supposed likeness in a picture that DaVinci painted, ("The Last Supper") - the allusion to which has gotten secular and Christian art historians moaning; (They have the record of the notes DaVinci made on his painting, defining who each character was,) and he bases most everything on a few documents, that are newly discovered, and unreliable- the Judas papers, for one... OK- info about this: there is only ONE copy... and it has holes ALL OVER it... We saw a photo of it- holes in the middle of sentences, etc... (the sentences, by the way, that Brown had to add things to in order to make his "proof" work....) and a few others.... All, we saw pictures of; all, there is ONE copy of, all are in horrible shape; (most of them are only about 70% there... and it's the gaps that Brown used for his book....)

2. He mispresents the Council of Nicene, (claiming that it was to determine whether or not Jesus was God, rather than to discuss Jesus' relationship with the Father, which resulted in the defining of the doctrine of the trinity) claiming that there was a "close vote" in the matter of Jesus deity..... (reality check- the vote for the trinity, which was the vote that Brown is warping; was 300 to 2....) Brown claims that Jesus didn't call himself God; claims that none of that came about until the early church decided to write things down differently... (hmm.. I wonder why the disciples would ever be willing to die for anything that wasn't true?? um... this doesn't figure properly, sorry...)

3. There are about 20 other "books" that could be termed "gospels"... however, they are not true biographical accounts in the sense that our Gospels are(rather, a compiliation of sayings and quotes, supposedly said by Jesus, etc.); neither do we have a lot of copies of them like we have of all of the Bible books; they are not applicable to life; (my pastor says he did read them in seminary... the gnostic gospels, for instance... gnosticism didn't sound like it held any comfort for life, he says,) and, the giant proof... DO you know WHY we don't have a lot of copies of them? Brown claims it was a conspiracy do get rid of them; rather, it was that people were not willing to die for them. Early Christians chose what they believed to be Truth, and preserved it; the Truth that they were willing to give their lives for, they copied, and risked being found with it, while Christianity was against the law.... some of the "other" books that we have discovered, were actually found in a garbage dump! (meaning.. no, not that you guys just found something awesome, but- hey- you dug up someone's trash!)

So.. That's a brief bit of what I learned from my Pastor about the DaVinci codes..... I wouldn't believe on bit of his book, if I were you.... Get one of those research books that systematically smashes Dan Brown's book..... you will learn a lot...

[Guest katrinakt8]

Well, I've never heard from anything like an official source that Opus Dei certified such a practice, but then again, the subject has never really interested me. I've met a few Opus Dei folks; they were very devout, and well-heeled financially, but not WEIRD!!!

Then again, the Old Testament Prophets sometimes wore 'sack cloth'. Uck!! How scratchy! Maybe it's for a purpose along those same lines.....? I mean as long as you're not doing yourself actual bodily injury, I can't see any harm in it, and we do have the Old Testament 'sack cloth' connection.........

According to the FAQ page on the Opus Dei webpage, some members do use a cilice and discipline. All members are supposed to do some sort of sacrifice such as putting others first or fasting. These sacrfices are supposed to make them more like Jesus. Wearing a cilice imitates the suffering Jesus went through.

source: http://www.opusdei.us/sec.php?s=494

Edited May 3, 2006 by katrinakt8

[Guest AngelicBeliever]

I've read all of Dan Brown's novels. This is what they are fictional thriller novels. People keep forgetting fiction isn't truth.

I do know that alot of the information that Dan Brown might have based his novels "The DiVinci Code" and "Angels And Demons" are based on the legends and myths of the Knights Templars and the mysteries that surrounds them.

I also read the book called "Holy Blood Holy Grail". The authors of this book are the ones who took Dan Brown to court over the "DiVinci Code". According to this book the Knights Templars were in a struggle with the Roman Catholic Church over the supposed findings of the knights when they were in the Holy Land and they held Jersaulem and the site of the last temple. This book implied that the Knights found something to use against the church when they dug under the Temple of Solomon and the theory goes they found something in the underground stables of the temple. This is how they became so powerful. France's King and Pope Clement V in 1307 destroyed the Knights or so the story goes to gain the wealth of the Knights. But many of the knights escaped to Scotland and went underground in France where they hide their wealth and findings, and the book I finished tonight implied there are alot of clues to this mystery all over Europe. Many believe today that they still exist and are now known as Freemasons. I don't know if they are masons and if the Knights have survived to this day. The Knights Templars are the ones who actually set up our banking systems as we know it today. The principles to bookkeeping and banking that they started are still in practice.

When I heard that the authors were taking Dan Brown to court. I didn't think they had a leg to stand on with their law suite. The Knights Templar Legacy has been investigated by thousands of people. Some who are historical scholars, history buffs, and conspiracy followers who follow the legend. I've heard the statement that the grail legend is tied in with the Knights Templars as well.

It's really ironic that I signed into this group tonight and saw this thread. I just this evening finished reading another fictional novel on the Knights Templar by Steve Berry called "The Temple Legacy". It was a good read but not as action packed as Brown's novel. The thing with the Berry novel that was just released was Berry told the readers at the end what was historical fact vs fiction.

Most best selling authors are going to research history if their book's plot is surrounded in a historical setting and include historical information within the plot. In a fictional novel the writer can twist historial information to conform to the plot to move the story along. This still doesn't mean that the book is true.

This amazes me that people don't understand this in regards to Dan Brown's book and soon to be released movie. It's just fiction. There is no actual historical fact that it is based on except for the Knights Templar Legend. "The DiVinci Code" has loads of historical information on actual historical places. It would be hard to write a novel such as Brown's and not include this information to help with the setting and plot. This book when taken for what it is is nothing more than a fictional thriller novel and is one of the best thriller's I've read in awhile. I read fictional novels all the time. It's one of my hobbies.

I do have to admit that I love reading about the Knights Templars. According to legend what they found under the temple is still a mystery to this day. The Templars wealth and what they found in Jerusalem have never been found to this day. It's truly one of the best mysteries of the medival time period.

All Dan Brown did was write a thriller based on this historical legend. The Knights Templar were a real organization back in history. Do they still live on today? Who knows except for the Knights themselves and their organization.

What if the Knights found proof of Jesus? I would like to see some author write a fictional novel with this idea.

I've read where many scholars believe that DiVinci himself was a Templar Knight and many other historical figures.

In regards to the Opus Dei question. I don't recall reading in the bible that we are to inflict pain on our bodies. This isn't something that I would do personally. I think the attacks of Satan in my life are enough to handle without inflicting pain on myself. I was astound when I read this in the novel that there is a sect in the RCC that allows this. I was surprised that the Pope allowed this. I understand what they are saying on why they do this, but I don't agree with this practice.

Edited May 3, 2006 by AngelicBeliever