Help w/ Romans 13

[Copper Scroll]

I never get a good answer when I raise questions about this scripture. Can someone help me out?

Romans 13:1-7:

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

I have always found this passage at least a little troubling. According to this passage, even people living under wicked rulership should just submit themselves--follow its laws and directives without question--however oppressive and evil that government is. This passage seems to excuse governmental wrongdoing and condemn the idea of revolution.

What if a revolution is successful (as many have been) and a new "authority" is established? Once, the rebellious party is in power, then their rebellion (I suppose) is okay--because then they would be the authorities which God establishes (v. 1 above). But up until that point, they are wrong for resisting those currently in power. This is difficult for me to sort out.

[Openly Curious]

Hello Copperscroll

Now I just know you are smarter than this.

keep at your studies I'm sure you'll be able to sort it all out.

Openly Curious

[Guest jckduboise]

Could it possibly be that they are figures of authority? Just as our parents were authority figures to us? Rebellion is not acceptable in God's eyes. If the ones governing are unjust in their treatment to their people, if they steal from us, if they put us in bondage, if they put us in prisons or kill us they are committing this sin against God not us. And in the same if we rebell against them we are actually rebelling against God.

Because all things human and material belong to God anything that we do against them is against God.

Perhaps Eph 6 would help to clear the matter.

It really doesn't always have to make sense at the time for us to have to follow the command.

[Spunky]

I may be wrong but I've always believed this passage

to be about the powers in which the Lord bestowed upon

the church officials governing their perishoners.

4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.

God Bless

[Giaour]

The church charges taxes?

[Spunky]

1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the [powers] that be are ordained of God.

2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.

3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:

4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience` sake.

6 For this cause ye pay tribute also; for they are ministers of God`s service, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law.

11 And this, knowing the season, that already it is time for you to awake out of sleep: for now is salvation nearer to us than when we [first] believed.

12 The night is far spent, and the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.

13 Let us walk becomingly, as in the day; not in revelling and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and jealousy.

14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].

Like I said I may be wrong in my interpretation and always look to be enlightened if I am!

But my take on the first six verses are that it refers to the powers the Lord bestowed upon

church official's in governing their perishoners. On the next eight verses I feel they are the

areas in which these church officials should be teaching their perishoners, as the Lord himself had commanded us to follow the laws in which He has set.

God Bless

Edited May 9, 2006 by Spunky

[Copper Scroll]

Could it possibly be that they are figures of authority? Just as our parents were authority figures to us? Rebellion is not acceptable in God's eyes. If the ones governing are unjust in their treatment to their people, if they steal from us, if they put us in bondage, if they put us in prisons or kill us they are committing this sin against God not us. And in the same if we rebell against them we are actually rebelling against God.

Because all things human and material belong to God anything that we do against them is against God.

Perhaps Eph 6 would help to clear the matter.

It really doesn't always have to make sense at the time for us to have to follow the command.

This is tough. It's saying that everything that happens apart from me--outside of me--is done by God, and likewise I should submit to it. I should submit passively to ill-treatment and obey everything that's commanded of me... until (I presume) the point where I am commanded to do something that God (in the Bible) says is wrong. I should even submit to slavery, as written in Ephesians 6. Further, I should be a good and contentious slave. All of this says "Be good"--"good" in the sense of "contentiously obedient and passive".

What makes all of this difficult to accept is that I know that earthly authorities are men and women; they are not God. So why should I submit to their commands and sit in their judgment as if they were God, especially when their own wickedness is evident?

[Copper Scroll]

The problem here Copper Scroll is that in order to interpret scripture properly, you must take the Bible as a whole. Here is what I believe concerning governmental authorities. God is the creator of all authorities. As such, when we rebell against those authorities, we are rebelling against God. At the same time, there is an authority higher than the earthly government, and that is God's authority. There is Biblical precident that shows that when man's laws go against God's laws, God's laws take priority. Pharoah had decreed that all male children be slain, yet the midwives saved them alive and God blessed them. The law said no man could pray, yet Daniel did so 3 times a day, and God blessed him. The 3 Hebrew children refused to bow to an idol in violation of the law and God delivered them. The Apostles were ordered not to preach in Jesus' name and continued to do so.

Concerning the issue of the overthrow of a government, the Bible says God raises up and God pulls down. If you go back in the Old Testament, you will find many examples of where God instigated a rebellion. In the case of Solomon's son Reheboam, it was God's will that Jereboam rebel against him and that the kingdom be divided. It was done as a result of Solomon's rebellion.

When it comes to how we obey this commandment in practical terms, we obey the laws of the land as long as those laws are not in violation of God's laws.

So there is a such thing as a righteous rebellion. Here, you indicate a rebellion can be righteous if it is a rebellion against what violates God's laws. So, just as earthly authorities judge us according to their laws, we should judge our earthly authorities in accordance with God's laws. To be clear: if an authority figure sins and sins again, we do not rebel--but if an authority figure commands us to sin, we should rebel. Is this what you are saying? Is this the measuring stick for the righteousness of a rebellion?

History might give us another standard: If a rebellion is successful, then it must be God's will (God raises up). If a rebellion fails, then it must be against God's will (God pulls down). This standard, however, would not be useful to someone who has to decide whether to join a rebellion in the present. He can't tell what's going to happen. How can we tell if God is trying to manipulate history through us or not?

[DaniJ87]

You raise interesting thoughts, Copper Scroll....

I have never been in a position where I have had to choose whether to follow a rebellion or not in that way... but I do know that God tells us to obey authorities- even those we consider unjust- as 1 Peter 3:13-17 says...

Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened." But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

and if God brings me to that place where I need to choose... I am confident that He will make it clear to me what to do... until then, I am struggling to obey authorities- they are not going to be anti-biblical very often, anyway.....

And technically- where does the Bible condemn slavery? Not that I think we should be doing it, or that certain people are better than others... but... as a thought- what verses do we have that condemn it? Any? I can't think of any off the top of my head that mention anything about slavery other than in the context of "be good servants to your masters" and "treat your slaves well"......

[Guest jckduboise]

Could it possibly be that they are figures of authority? Just as our parents were authority figures to us? Rebellion is not acceptable in God's eyes. If the ones governing are unjust in their treatment to their people, if they steal from us, if they put us in bondage, if they put us in prisons or kill us they are committing this sin against God not us. And in the same if we rebell against them we are actually rebelling against God.

Because all things human and material belong to God anything that we do against them is against God.

Perhaps Eph 6 would help to clear the matter.

It really doesn't always have to make sense at the time for us to have to follow the command.

This is tough. It's saying that everything that happens apart from me--outside of me--is done by God, and likewise I should submit to it. I should submit passively to ill-treatment and obey everything that's commanded of me... until (I presume) the point where I am commanded to do something that God (in the Bible) says is wrong. I should even submit to slavery, as written in Ephesians 6. Further, I should be a good and contentious slave. All of this says "Be good"--"good" in the sense of "contentiously obedient and passive".

What makes all of this difficult to accept is that I know that earthly authorities are men and women; they are not God. So why should I submit to their commands and sit in their judgment as if they were God, especially when their own wickedness is evident?

Because the Lord is our protector. For every sin committed against His children the offender will pay the price. Look at Pharoah and Egypt. Moses with the guidance of the Lord took them from Egypt and parted the sea for the Israelites to cross. When the Egyptains were on the bed of the sea and the Israelites were safely on the other side God let the walls of the sea go and killed all that were in pursuit. The Lord exacts the payment not us.

On a personal note. I had spent years battling the courts and my daughters father for custody of her. The way I battled was completely against unrighteous and even though I knew I was being unrighteous I still battled. And I lost. Was God punishing me? No, I don't believe so. I believe He was teaching me that His way is the only way. Today, I don't deal with my ex's distastfull behaviors. I let the Lord, I live in peace with it. My ex does not. God wins. He is more powerful than I am. He knows where the achiles tendon is and how to cause it pain. When I fight the battle I am fighting against flesh and blood. When God fights the battle He is fighting the powers and principalities, big difference.

I will repeat. What is done against me is actually done against God. Therefore, why should I do anything but remain clean and righteous.

Psalm 91

He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.

I will say of the Lord "He is my refuge and my fortress, my god, in whom I trust.

Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare and from the deadly pestilence.

He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge, his faithfulness will be your sheild and rampart.

You will not fear the terror of night nor the arrow that flies by day. nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday.

A thousand may fall at your side, then thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.

You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.

If you make the Most High your dwelling-even the Lord, who is my refuge-then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent.

For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

You will tread upon the lion and the cobra, you will trample the great lion and the serpent.

Because he loves me" says the Lord, I will rescue him, I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

He will call upon me and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.

With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation.

With this passage alone I know that anything that is done unto me is done unto the Lord because I belong to Him and what is His, He takes care of.

I personally don't need any other guarantee.