Temple Mount Holy or Un-Holy

[Guest coolwaters]

Greetings All,

I agree with Blindseeker that the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem is a false milestone of the Lord's coming. I have gone into this on other threads of this forum. There are actually many reasons I do not believe it will be built.

1) Subjectively, in my experience, there are events that occur in the Bible, even in my life that comes in 3s. I see Solomon's Temple as Temple #1, then the Nehemiah Temple as #2. I know others have rebuilt (refurbished?) the temple, but not from the ground up in totality. There is no mention made in the NT about a 3rd PHYSICAL temple - EXCEPT for the WORD "naos" as opposed to the word "heiron", both interpreted TEMPLE in English. Naos is the innermost part of the Temple wherein resides the Holy Spirit. This is where the "shikanah glory" rested in the Solomon's Temple. In the NT we see that the word "heiron" is the ENTIRE temple, the surrounds, buildings, walls etc. The "naos" is mentioned in reference to: "Christ's body, the church in its entirety, the individual believer, and every mention of temple in the book of Revelation, primarily referring to the "temple that is now in heaven".

2) I can't overemphasize that the OT is given for "examples", and we see lots of "types and shadows" of what would take place in the NT. Nowhere in the NT is their any mention of rebuilding a 3rd physical temple, and it certainly is NOT one of the signs given us of the Lord's return. We NOW have a building (Temple) NOT MADE BY HUMAN HANDS, of which the world does not know.

3) Jesus once remarked as he looked at the Temple and made the comment "No stone shall be left unturned."

4) Read carefully the following, particularly at the word "consummation":

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

When the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. "sacrifice and oblation ceased", it would remain desolate EVEN until the "consummation", that is until God's full plan of redemption is completed, and that is WHEN the Lord makes His second advent.

5) As for the AoD that sits in the most Holy place - What IS the most Holy place? Is it not YOU?

1 Cor 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple (NAOS) of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple (NAOS) of God is holy, which temple ye are.

What becomes an abomination in those last days? Is it not the "Church of God" that becomes a part of the world as the Beast begins waging war against the saints? Yes! And it is this very church that it is said:

Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. (THE PRIMARY "SPIRIT" OF THE LAST DAYS CHURCH)

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (THIS IS NOT THE RAPTURE AS SOME PEOPLE MIGHT THINK, BUT IT IS THE CALLING OUT OF THE SAINTS OF GOD FROM THE APOSTATE CHURCH/WORLD GOVERNMENT WHICH WILL BE SET UP AT THAT TIME)

So if those things don't give you pause to think about the temple in the last days, I don't know what else could.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

4) Read carefully the following, particularly at the word "consummation":

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

When the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. "sacrifice and oblation ceased", it would remain desolate EVEN until the "consummation", that is until God's full plan of redemption is completed, and that is WHEN the Lord makes His second advent.

Dad E:)

So you believe Daniel 9:27 actually began in 70 A.D.? I take it you do. Isn't the verse timing better placed during the tribulation when the antichrist is raging? What's your rationale or scripture that revealed this to you?

The abomination of desolation? The desolate ? I have always thought this to be the believers in the antichrist, those carying the mark. My rationale is that when these desolate people trample the temple, their mere presence is the abomination. Which begs the question, if the reasoning is correct? I dunno! If it is a abomination for the desolate people to trample the temple and the sacrifice of the oblation was ceased. Then it is indirectly stating that a temple will be built and to get to the point. Wouldn't it have to be Holy if G-d considerd it to be a abomination?

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Coolwaters,

So you believe Daniel 9:27 actually began in 70 A.D.? I take it you do. Isn't the verse timing better placed during the tribulation when the antichrist is raging? What's your rationale or scripture that revealed this to you?

Let's also include this verse so that it may explain things a little better:

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

First the "he" in Daniel 9:27 refers to Christ and not the anti-christ as many think. If you look at its antecedent, it either refers to the people of the prince OR the Messiah in vs. 25. Since the antecedent must be compatable with it's antecedent, then "people" (being plural) cannot be it. So that leaves the Messiah (singular).

So we know that this prophecy regards ISRAEL and the time of its redemption or "return to righteousness". At the END of the 69th week of the 70, the Messiah came. (Others have given the chronology of this if you search of it) So that left ONE week remaining. For 3 1/2 years of that last week, Jesus came "preaching to the lost sheep of Israel", yet they rejected Him and had Him killed. That leaves 3 1/2 years outstanding of the 70 weeks. If you examine Revelations carefully, there are MANY instances of a period of 3 1/2 years at the end. Some have combined 2 of these references to refer to the FULL 7th week, but this is not so. Each of the 3 1/2 year periods in Revelation can be shown to occur at the same time and if you do a careful study of it, you can see it for yourself. So there are ONLY 3 1/2 years in the end, which will complete the "time of Jacob's troubles". Within that timeframe the remnant of SAVED Jews will blossum so that Romans 11 will be fulfilled - ALL Israel shall be saved. You will also find an illusion to the Messiah being "cut off" in this verse:

Romans 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Righteousness for ISRAEL was indeed "cut short" by the death of their Messiah.

The abomination of desolation? The desolate ? I have always thought this to be the believers in the antichrist, those carying the mark. My rationale is that when these desolate people trample the temple, their mere presence is the abomination. Which begs the question, if the reasoning is correct? I dunno! If it is a abomination for the desolate people to trample the temple and the sacrifice of the oblation was ceased. Then it is indirectly stating that a temple will be built and to get to the point. Wouldn't it have to be Holy if G-d considerd it to be a abomination?

You may do well to study 1 & 2 John to determine just what the "antichrist" is. It is a SPIRIT. It is NOT a single person as you have been taught. It will come on the church as a very powerful influence and many will take the "mark of the beast" from within the church. This is the time when God will "call out" His people (the saints) from the earthly church.

Hope that explains it.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest coolwaters]

Greetings Coolwaters,

So you believe Daniel 9:27 actually began in 70 A.D.? I take it you do. Isn't the verse timing better placed during the tribulation when the antichrist is raging? What's your rationale or scripture that revealed this to you?

Let's also include this verse so that it may explain things a little better:

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

First the "he" in Daniel 9:27 refers to Christ and not the anti-christ as many think. If you look at its antecedent, it either refers to the people of the prince OR the Messiah in vs. 25. Since the antecedent must be compatable with it's antecedent, then "people" (being plural) cannot be it. So that leaves the Messiah (singular).

So we know that this prophecy regards ISRAEL and the time of its redemption or "return to righteousness". At the END of the 69th week of the 70, the Messiah came. (Others have given the chronology of this if you search of it) So that left ONE week remaining. For 3 1/2 years of that last week, Jesus came "preaching to the lost sheep of Israel", yet they rejected Him and had Him killed. That leaves 3 1/2 years outstanding of the 70 weeks. If you examine Revelations carefully, there are MANY instances of a period of 3 1/2 years at the end. Some have combined 2 of these references to refer to the FULL 7th week, but this is not so. Each of the 3 1/2 year periods in Revelation can be shown to occur at the same time and if you do a careful study of it, you can see it for yourself. So there are ONLY 3 1/2 years in the end, which will complete the "time of Jacob's troubles". Within that timeframe the remnant of SAVED Jews will blossum so that Romans 11 will be fulfilled - ALL Israel shall be saved. You will also find an illusion to the Messiah being "cut off" in this verse:

Romans 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Righteousness for ISRAEL was indeed "cut short" by the death of their Messiah.

The abomination of desolation? The desolate ? I have always thought this to be the believers in the antichrist, those carying the mark. My rationale is that when these desolate people trample the temple, their mere presence is the abomination. Which begs the question, if the reasoning is correct? I dunno! If it is a abomination for the desolate people to trample the temple and the sacrifice of the oblation was ceased. Then it is indirectly stating that a temple will be built and to get to the point. Wouldn't it have to be Holy if G-d considerd it to be a abomination?

You may do well to study 1 & 2 John to determine just what the "antichrist" is. It is a SPIRIT. It is NOT a single person as you have been taught. It will come on the church as a very powerful influence and many will take the "mark of the beast" from within the church. This is the time when God will "call out" His people (the saints) from the earthly church.

Hope that explains it.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

I had a baptist upbringing and your interpretations put a different twist on some of my understandings of the "Word". Sorry VOG I mean scripture.

Any way, I respect your thoughts and want totally dismiss your teachings. I will put it on the shelf until I can study the subject more earnestly and become more confident in the interpretation. Thanks

[Guest shiloh357]

Actually, the last nine chapters of Ezekiel prophesy of a 4th Temple and it is a literal temple. The sacrifices are also mentioned as having resumed. There is no way to allegorize or spiritualize this building. A model of it was built using Ezekiel's measurements, and it is architecturally sound. It is interesting because it is the Temple of Messiah during the Millenium and he is allowing sacrifces there.

[BlindSeeker]

When history and scriptures agree . . . .

Matthew 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Adam Clarke's Commentary:

Verse 15. The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel] This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, (Lu 21:20,21,) refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins. The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6,) the *Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mr 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.

*Havercamp's note here: "This (says he) is a remarkable place; and Tertullian truly says in his Apologetic, ch. 16. p. 162, that the entire religion of the Roman camp almost consisted in worshipping the ensigns, in swearing by the ensigns, and in preferring the ensigns before all the [other] gods."

Josephus - Wars Book 5 -Chap.1 - para. 1 - THE SEDITIONS AT JERUSALEM AND WHAT TERRIBLE MISERIES AFFLICTED THE CITY BY THEIR MEANS;

Now as to the attack the zealots made upon the people, and which I esteem the beginning of the city's destruction, it hath been already explained after an accurate manner; as also whence it arose, and to how great a mischief it was increased. But for the present sedition, one should not mistake if he called it a sedition begotten by another sedition, and to be like a wild beast grown mad, which, for want of food from abroad, fell now upon eating its own flesh.

para. 3 - . . . slew moreover many of the priests, as they were about their sacred ministrations. For notwithstanding these men were mad with all sorts of impiety, yet did they still admit those that desired to offer their sacrifices, although they took care to search the people of their own country beforehand, and both suspected and watched them; while they were not so much afraid of strangers, who, although they had gotten leave of them, how cruel soever they were, to come into that court, were yet often destroyed by this sedition; for those darts that were thrown by the engines came with that force, that they went over all the buildings, and reached as far as the altar, and the temple itself, and fell upon the priests, and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth, to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and Barbarians, with their own blood; till the dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves. And now, "O must wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy intestine hatred! 'For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou long continue in being, after thou hadst been a sepulcher for the bodies of thy own people, and hadst made the holy house itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction." But I must restrain myself from these passions by the rules of history, since this is not a proper time for domestical lamentations, but for historical narrations; I therefore return to the operations that follow in this sedition.

• Luke 13:1 - There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
  2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
  3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
  4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
  5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
  

Josephus - Wars Book 5 -Chap.1 - para. 5

They agreed in nothing but this, to kill those that were innocent. The noise also of those that were fighting was incessant, both by day and by night; but the lamentations of those that mourned exceeded the other; nor was there ever any occasion for them to leave off their lamentations, because their calamities came perpetually one upon another, although the deep consternation they were in prevented their outward wailing; but being constrained by their fear to conceal their inward passions, they were inwardly tormented, without daring to open their lips in groans. Nor was any regard paid to those that were still alive, by their relations; nor was there any care taken of burial for those that were dead; the occasion of both which was this, that every one despaired of himself; for those that were not among the seditious had no great desires of any thing, as expecting for certain that they should very soon be destroyed; but for the seditious themselves, they fought against each other, while they trod upon the dead bodies as they lay heaped one upon another, and taking up a mad rage from those dead bodies that were under their feet, became the fiercer thereupon. They, moreover, were still inventing somewhat or other that was pernicious against themselves; and when they had resolved upon any thing, they executed it without mercy, and omitted no method of torment or of barbarity.

Josephus - Wars Book 6 -Chap.2 - para. 1 - HOW TITUS . . . PERSUADED JOSEPHUS TO EXHORT THE JEWS AGAIN [TO A SURRENDER].

And WHO IS THERE THAT DOES NOT KNOW what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them, - and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans, and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions.

[Adstar]

Hi Nebula

I guess that if the holiness of the Temple was because of God's glory, than the holiness left when God's glory left. The Temple had to be cleansed in order for it to be holy again, as I understand it. (You know about the red heifer?)

When the veil was split, the implication was that everyone can now have access to the presence of God, right? Whether the spot is still holy or not, through the blood of Jesus the perfect Lamb of God, we can boldly enter the Throne of grace, right?

 

Remember in the desert when God came to Moses? When Moses saw the burning bush and God said to Him to take his sandals off because he was standing on Holy Ground? Thinking of that land let me ask you a question:

Is that land still Holy?

If it is and the rain has fallen and washed some of that land into a river, is the bed of that river holy? or if some mud has run into the sea from that river is the sea bead holy? Or maybe the wind has blown some of that sand over many square miles does that make the sounding country Holy as well? Surly the Holiness was not in the ground it was in the presence of God on that ground at the time God was there communicating with Moses.

Think of our own bodies that are indwelled by the Spirit Do we not refer to our bodies as temples of the Lord? Does not the presence of the Spirit make ones body holy?

The veil was a partition that enclosed the holy of holies When the veil was split it was a sign that what was within the holy of holies was breaking out and leaving the temple, leaving the mount, It was gone.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days