Tongues what do you think? (MERGED TOPIC)

[Mark777]

Part of the problem of validating this, nebula, is that if we did record you and find out that it was just gibberish, others would just say , "well She might have not had it but I do." The standard for what is right and wrong is Scripture. There is where we ought to be looking.

Mark

Edited June 2, 2006 by Mark777

[nebula]

If you aren't willing to prove I am speaking gibberish and not an actual language, then please stoop accusing me of such.

[Mark777]

I did not accuse anyone of speaking gibberish. I was just interested in whether you held the authority of Scripture above personal experience. I made no statement about your gift.

Mark

[Guest Daave]

Daave:

"Do scriptures acknowlege that Spirit interceeds for us with grownings that cannot be uttered when we don't know what or how to pray? Yes"

Mark777: Daave, are you saying this is referring to tongues? It says "...with groanings that cannot be uttered." If you cannot utter them how can they be tongues?

Mark

Mark,

Others in the "tongues camp" would use this scripture to promote the idea that is was referring to tongues. No, I do not believe that this scripture is referring to tongues at all.

Daave

[Guest Daave]

Jesus Christ is the author and giver of salvation. The early church discipled the new converts they didn't get a quick head count of the newly "saved" call Guiness I think we have a new record! Aids is killing the entire African nation but we are concerned with getting them to say some words so we can get more money for our "ministry" which seems to care more about proselityzing christianity to Africa than loving them and providing care.

So, by your standard, all of Billy Grahanm's ministry is equally bogus? An evangelist does not train, or disciple. They preach salvation, It is up to the Church to nurture and teach the new converts. Evangelists win souls, pastors shepherd. So many Christians think today that all preachers should do everything. It was made quite clear in scripture that they were not supposed to do everything. They have a calling. They should stay inside it. Usually the evangelist who tries to pastor falls on his face. Usually the pastor who tries to be an evangelist has paultry results compared to someone who was called to strictly be an evangelist.

The gifts of tongues operate as the Holy Spirit wills. Sometimes the audiences do understand the missionary. There is audiotape of Kenneth E Haggen Sr. Speaking for app. 20 min in a foreign language. It was a little known native tongue of one of the Western United States Indian tribes. Quite regularly, there are stories of one or more people in a crowd that understand the speakers utterance in tongues in their own language.

Are tongues spoken today? for sure, I did it my self along with dosens of others. I experienced some real stuff that can only be explained as supernatural, but the path they take you down takes you away from Jesus, and replaces the Christian life, with so called "Christian experiences."

The first religious body to speak in tongues in America were the Mormons back in 1830, that is where some of my research lead me, and was a part of my reasons for digging deeper. I assumed what I had experieced was from God. It felt good, it sounded good, it brought with it an excitment and an enthusiasm, and little by little, my desire was to seek more experiences, suposeadly meaning more of the "Spirit".............................

Daave

[Guest JonathanUK]

Hey,

I'm trying to keep unbaised view here...so just bear with me...I might fail completly! I just wanted to respond to some points that different people have brought up.

So, quickly put on your biblical Thinking Caps. The classic "tongues" passage in Acts 2:8-11 specifically states the very national & earthly languages - not mish-mash - spoken & heard by the gathered individuals at Pentecost! Nary an iota of a hint re "heavenly gibberish" anywhere! And, of course, angels speaking in actual Hebrew - not "mish-mash" - to the Palestinian shepherds has to be Exhibit No. 1. Why wouldn't they have spoken in a "heavenly" language in order to please charismatics & compatriots? Hmmm?

I speak bits of French, Malaysian & Finish (Not talking about tounges here). But if I'm speaking to an English person I talk in English, if I talk to a French person I talk in french (unless of course there ENglish is better than my French.) Sorry for the bad example but the Angels can speak in Hebrew, they've also spoken in other languages?...but it's no conclusion that they can or they can't speak in other languages.

1 Cor 14:1-3 KJV

1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

1 Cor 14:2 ESV

1Co 14:1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

1Co 14:3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.

So Paul here is clearly telling the Cor church to prophecy & speak in tounges...tounges that noone but God will understand. Are these languages that exist currently? Languages that have been dead for 100's or 1000's of years with no modern day translational? Either way the emphasis here is on that noone but God will understand them.

Are tongues spoken today? for sure, I did it my self along with dosens of others. I experienced some real stuff that can only be explained as supernatural, but the path they take you down takes you away from Jesus, and replaces the Christian life, with so called "Christian experiences."

The first religious body to speak in tongues in America were the Mormons back in 1830, that is where some of my research lead me, and was a part of my reasons for digging deeper. I assumed what I had experieced was from God. It felt good, it sounded good, it brought with it an excitment and an enthusiasm, and little by little, my desire was to seek more experiences, suposeadly meaning more of the "Spirit".............................

Daave

I agree - I think there is a huge danger to fall in the trap of just desiring spiritual gifts and not God:

KJV

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Final Quote:

KJV

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Tougnes here could be interpreted as: Heavenly Langauges, Other New Languages or Languages of peace in oyour own language.

Mar 16:18a could also be taken as being analogous to pains and hurts of this world. But where is Mar 16:18b happening?

Sorry I ran out of time -- I'll just post this for now,

Jonathan

[tah]

Your non-response from the Bible (on Acts 2:8-11, etc.) to the points raised, well, it kinda "disarms" me. One supposes your non-answer might indeed be the very best charismatic answer, yes?

Anyways, come join me sometime at Starbucks!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

starbucks makes me physically ill...

no taker here...

[nebula]

Part of the problem of validating this, nebula, is that if we did record you and find out that it was just gibberish, . . .

If you aren't willing to prove I am speaking gibberish and not an actual language, then please stoop accusing me of such.

I did not accuse anyone of speaking gibberish.

Well, your statement says so.

What if you record me and discover that I am speaking another language and I'm worshiping the Lord or preaching the Gospel?

[Arthur Durnan]

I'm still earnestly searching for any biblical instance of "heavenly gibberish" or "divine mumbo-jumo" spoken by man or angel anywhere throughout all of Holy Writ. The recent replies of charismatic friends do not benefit in any way their crying need for biblical coherence.

Mark it down once for all time -

national, not heavenly;

understood, not gibberish;

earthly, not heavenly;

men & angel alike, not different languages for both.

Hmm. Are we kistening, Charles Parham?

P.S. Got something against Starbucks? Okay, you choose the place.

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[tah]

Arthur..go to a Bible bookstore...

find you all the books you can afford or are interested in and read them..

pro and con ..totally up to you...

If you are not interested in anyones thoughts on it then just search the Scripture yourself and pray and ask God about it..

Whatever He tells you...believe it....

Thats what I would do if I were you....

if I wanted to know something ....

God is always the best one to ask....

He knows more than I do....