What do these verses mean if not the salvation of all mankind?

[red77]

The verses in Eph and Colossians you included in your list, which are the two I am addressing because they do sound inclusive of all of humanity, are actually speaking about the will of God. It is His will that all will come to Him, but sadly not all will. The reason there is so much significance in what Paul was saying is because at one time, it was thought that salvation was only for the Jews. Paul was pointing out that it is God's will that salvation be for all people.

Well i think that all the verses indicate inclusiveness of all humanity to be honest......but to answer the points about the two verses you've addressed - if its God's will that all men be saved then who could thwart it......the Col verse doesnt indicate that its God's whim but rather a plan that isnt going to stopped by the wills of men, it says to reconcile all things unto himself be it in heaven or on earth

likewise in the Eph verse it indicates that this would occur within the fullness of time too, I appreciate what you mean regarding the salvation of the jews and the misnoma about that but it doesnt really explain why these verses dont say the salvation of purely believers.....or at least descriptions to that effect,

Religion has notoriously prided itself by use of "exclusivity." If you make these people feel "not special" then you really won't have a working religion.

I'm a firm supporter of Evolution. The Bibie wouldn't be around, if it wasn't a potent written force to begin with. True? That doesn't matter, if it can cast the illusion that it is. Helping that illusion along is telling people, "Keep me holy and you'll gain exclusive rights into my kingdom." By "you'll", I mean a certain subset that "believe" it. You starting to see the circular reference? It's just one of many.

I can see your point, unfortunately exclusivity should be the last thing and I believe actually is the last thing that the bible teaches, going slightly off topic here I guess but the actual good news of the gospel in so far as i believe it is that God is there for everyone no matter what denomination they have or lack thereof.......man excludes and places more emphasis on doctrines that apparently have more truth than another churche's doctrines and the whole message gets caught up in dogma with one set claiming to have the truth while another says the same etc etc ........as far as I'm concerned God isnt about doctrines but about people..........I think i heard here that Jesus was the ultimate fundamentalist........its funny because at the time he was regarded as the ultimate heretic by those who lived by religious teaching..........!

[Ovedya]

However......

With regard to the verses you posted, I offer the following:

[Anika]

Red, let's look at more than just a verse taken out of a passage, but let's include it into the passage. I think Colossians is the more difficult one to understand, so I will use that one:

v 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure (meaning will) for all the fullness to dwell in Him,

v20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

v21 And although you were formerly alienated (Paul is talking to a Greek church, so here he mentions the alienation of the Gentiles, but they are no longer alienated) and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

v22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death (Because of God's work on the cross, He revealed His plan of salvation to all, not just Jews) , in order to present you before Him holy and blameless beyond reproach-

v23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard... (There is that "if" that shows we must believe and accept the gospel, which is Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, in order for any of us to be reconciled to Him.)

If at any point it sounded like I was talking down to you, I wasn't. I know you're not dumb, I just found it vital to point out some key points of that scripture along with any Jew/Gentile history that was alluded to.

[Ovedya]

Ovedya, I think you did an excellent job.

Thanks.

[undone]

I think the term ALL is meant to refer to Jews and Gentiles alike. In other words, Christ didn't die just for the Jews but Gentiles too, ALL men. You'll notice throughout the new testament the statement "first the Jew and then the Gentile". The use of the word ALL is intended to remove the idea of the exclusivity of Christ's salvation to the Jews. I don't believe it's intended to remove the responsibility for us to accept and believe it. So in that context, the scriptures you point out can easily be reconciled with the idea that we have something to do to recieve it.

Consider this verse from Acts 16:30-34 NASB: 30...and after brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household." 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. 34And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.

Notice that Paul and Silas did not reply to the jailer when asked what he must do "Nah...don't worry, you're saved already."

To accept your idea that ALL men are saved regardless implies the apostles themselves didn't know what they were talking about and that their own deaths were in vain.

[ayin jade]

Red how do you reconcile these verses with universalism?

John 3: 18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.

Romans 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.

[red77]

However......

With regard to the verses you posted, I offer the following:

Edited June 7, 2006 by red77

[redeemed098]

Hi red.....

You can believe in marriage as much as you want, but youre not married until you put the ring "ON".

Christ sustains the Life of the Born again believer.....Christ IS the Life of the Born again believer.

"It is no longer I that Lives but Christ who lives in ME........"

Christianity IS exclusive.....Absolutely exclusive.......God has accepted ONLY those who are "In Christ."

He chose US......We simply accepted his gift.....Why did he choose us...???? I don't know, cannot for the life of me figure out WHY, but he DID....Not on the basis of who WE are, but on the basis of who HE is.....Everything God has offered to us is "Through Christ." and "In Christ."

"The love of God which is IN Christ Jesus."

"Just as In Christ, God has forgiven US."

"He will provide All your needs according to His riches and glory In Christ Jesus."

"The wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift from God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord."

Absolutely everything that God has made available to the believer is only made available through Christ.

If you don't have Christ, you don't have ANYTHING.

The key word here is "Lord" or Master.......Is Jesus your Lord...? Is he the first and final authority in any circumstance of your life....? Is Jesus Uncompromisingly the one you are totally and completely surrendered to......? Are you prepared to give up your life for the message of the gospel......? Would you lay down your life if it meant the salvation of just ONE soul.....?

Because red, you cannot serve TWO masters, you must as Jesus said, Love the one and hate the other.....Are YOU the sole possession of Christ, or do you belong to someone else.....?

How can you share the father-heart of God for those who are Lost when it is your belief that everyone is already saved.....??? Why evangelise the Lost...??

Why do people cry out for the salvation of their loved ones who are still lost....? Why do people go into all the world as commanded by Jesus to preach the gospel if everyone is already saved....???

What drives us and motivates us to run with perseverance the race that is set before us....? What race is there to run if all men are already saved....?

Why does a Christian care about those who are LOST if they are indeed "NOT LOST."??

Speak to those who go into all the nations and suffer for the sake of the gospel horrendous persecution, and then you will begin to understand why it said that God is the saviour of all men," Especially those who believe." Because those who believe will suffer persecution, rejection and even death for the name of Christ. "Precious in the sight of God is the death of his saints." Willing to face anything to proclaim the name of Christ, no matter what the cost.

You are told to "Put on Christ".....You must apply Christ to your life.....Not just his teachings......Jesus Himself....

Regards,

Ben.

[redeemed098]

Red,

Do you know why people like to reject the Christ of the Bible........? They reject Christ because it is easier to reject him than it is to follow him.

You look for the salvation without the commitment. You want to follow Christ on your own terms......Your terms make you unfit for the kingdom of God, that is why when ever men made an excuse he was clear and concise.......He who begins to plow and then looks BACK is not fit for the kingdom.....You want to follow Christ......???? Then commit your life to him......100% of it.....If you're going to keep 1% for yourself, then forget it....It's ALL or NOTHING....

If you're going to lay down your life for the proclamation of the gospel red, you'd better gain an understanding of the Faith you're prepared to die for...

Regards,

Ben.

Edited June 7, 2006 by redeemed098

[EricH]

Religion has notoriously prided itself by use of "exclusivity." If you make these people feel "not special" then you really won't have a working religion.

This would only be true if the idea of excusivity began with us. This is what Jesus had to say:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me".

John 14:6 NASB

This is what Jesus claimed, that through Him alone we can come into a relationship with God. I did not make that up. I get no great joy out of telling folks that is the case. But that is what Jesus claimed.