Salvation is of the jews

[Guest yod]

QUOTE 

So God used the jewish race to birth salvation for all mankind and therefore this is what Jesus meant when He said, "Salvation is of the jews"

So why all the fuss yod? It's still to God's glory and no one else.

Not sure why you asked that question. I have no problem with Jesus saying "salvation is of the jews"

how about you?

[sagz4Christ]

Why had salvation come the Gentiles?

This is the real reason:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I don't mean to but in here. I know that this is a discussion between the both of you and I really have no right as I haven't read much of anything on this subject, but I looked this time and feel it important to interject something that might be of interest to all parties involved.

As I don't yet know the implications of this passage of Scripture, I am hoping one of my Hebrew/Jewish brothers can help enlighten me to this riddle.

I post here not to highjack the thread, but it seems to me that the real reason salvation came to the Gentiles lies in the meaning of this section. Though it is true what you say idolsmasher, I have to say I doubt that is the whole story.

Let me explain, and maybe get some explination(sp) in return!

Romans 11

1 Isay then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

"God has given them a spirit of stupor,

Eyes that they should not see

And ears that they should not hear,

To this very day."

9 And David says:

"Let their table become a snare and a trap,

A stumbling block and a recompense to them.

10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,

And bow down their back always."

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,

And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

27 For this is My covenant with them,

When I take away their sins."

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD?

Or who has become His counselor?"

35 "Or who has first given to Him

And it shall be repaid to him?"

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

I wanted to try and pick just a section out of this chapter, but looking through it again, I realized it can't be seperated. I am positive that the answer to this question;

Why had salvation come the Gentiles?

Is somewhere in this chpater of Romans...

Can someone help explain this to me?

~your servant in Christ

p.s. sorry for highjacking~

[Guest idolsmasher]

Not sure why you asked that question. I have no problem with Jesus saying "salvation is of the jews"

So God used the jewish race to birth salvation for all mankind and therefore this is what Jesus meant when He said, "Salvation is of the jews"

We are saying basically the same thing but with one major difference. You seem to be inferring that that somehow gives glory or special importance to the Jews where I think that it is God that should get the glory because it was Him doing the work. Maybe salvation was of the Jews at the time Jesus said that, but it isn't anymore. Salvation is now of those who follow Christ, and most of them aren't Jews.

[Mrs Mac]

Yod.....

I have no problem with Jesus saying "salvation is of the jews"  how about you?

     

Nope! I have no problem with it and I am of that gentile, western ,Paulist society, called the church that gets up people's noses.

[Ovedya]

you are confusing the meanings of the words "of" and "for"

Actually, I think I was confusing "out of" and "for." I understand that the meaning of "ek" is actually "out of" or "from." So this statement really means, "Salvation is out of/from the Jews." Of course this makes sense in the historical record, since Jesus, the Messiah came out from the Jews. We agree, brother.

Jesus was saying that salvation was a concept known only to Jews. Of course it is for everyone, yet Jesus even said that He came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He was pretty unpolitically correct when dealing with that Syro-Phonecian woman.

There are not many gentiles mentioned whom Jesus spoke to. One being the Centurion who understood authority...another centurion who showed great love for the jewish people so Jesus healed his daughter, the Syro-Phonecian woman, and the Samaritan woman at the well.

Interesting. I think, though, that you may be missing an important aspect of the Lord's ministry, with regard to the Gentiles. In Matthew 15 the Lord withdrew into the parts of Tyre and Sidon (v. 21). Tyre and Sidon, as you may know, were Gentile lands. These lands were despised by the Jewish religionists who opposed the Lord (cf. Matt. 11:21). And, in fact, Tyre and Sidon was considered cursed lands (Isa. 23:1-18; Ezek. 27:32; 28:2-23). After being rejected by the Jewish religionists the Lord began preaching to the Gentiles, as well as the believing Jews.

I think it's important to note that the Lord came to Tyre and Sidon after being rejected by the Jewish religionists, and that in this place the Gentile woman came to the Lord. In reading Matthew 21-28 it could be rightly said that the Lord went to Tyre and Sidon also because of that Gentile woman. When He said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs." I believe He was testing the faith of the woman. Surely the Lord had a heart for the Gentiles, and surely He did not Himself intend to limit God's saving grace to the Jews alone; otherwise He would not have said, "I have other sheep..." The children's bread is the Lord Himself, who is the bread of life (John 6), and the little dogs are the Gentiles. Yet this woman realized that even a lowly dogs eats the bread which comes from the master's table. This woman's faith was such that the Lord healed her daughter that very hour.

Now, don't get me wrong here. I agree with, "salvation is of the Jews." And I do not believe the nonsense of the Lord establishing a church of the Gentiles because the Jews rejected Him. I'm just making the point that the Lord's heart was equally for the Gentiles and the Jews. The Jewish religionists rejected the Lord, the bread of life, and He was cast down from the table (Israel) onto the floor (Tyre and Sidon) where the little dogs (the Gentiles) could partake of Him (cf. Matt. 12:15-21; Isa. 42:1-3). Thus, the Lord's ministry was both for the Jews (first, of course) and the Gentiles.

[Ovedya]

Maybe salvation was of the Jews at the time Jesus said that, but it isn't anymore. Salvation is now of those who follow Christ, and most of them aren't Jews.

Whether Jew, Greek, Barbarian, Sythian, slave, or freeman, salvation is for everyone who believes into Christ Jesus. I think the Bible makes that issue pretty clear, don't you? God has never forgotten about His promise to the children of Israel, by the way. Even though there is a renewed and better covenant, the Jews are still God's people. They only need believe in Messiah.

[Guest yod]

Now, don't get me wrong here. I agree with, "salvation is of the Jews." And I do not believe the nonsense of the Lord establishing a church of the Gentiles because the Jews rejected Him. I'm just making the point that the Lord's heart was equally for the Gentiles and the Jews.

we are in 100% agreement here, G-dude

I am only trying to show Smash that Jesus is/was a jew and that the gospel is PRIMARILY to the jew and yet EQUALLY to the gentile because they, of all nations in the earth, were/are expecting the Messiah.

Jesus' goal is to redeem all the sons of Adam....yet the Father's plan is to bring this world-wide blessing through the sons (and Son) of Abraham. Yes, we are the spiritual seed but that does not negate the promises made to his physical seed...as I'm sure everyone here but Smash will agree.

I'm purposely needling Smash because he can't stand the thought of the jewish people still being chosen.

::::sticks out tongue::::

[Guest idolsmasher]

Even though there is a renewed and better covenant, the Jews are still God's people. They only need believe in Messiah.

God's people in my view are those who have entered into that better covenant. The old covenant was clearly done away with and not renewed. Jews are God's people only if they have entered into that New Covenant by receiving the one with whom we have this covenant, Jesus Christ. I don't understand how you can think they are God's people when they look on Jesus and his followers as idolaters and despise the one who was sent to be their redeemer. It's clear as day in the Talmud what they think of Jesus. In the Bible those Jews who despised Him in this way were in His own words told they were not Abraham's children but were children of Satan and yet you say those today who still believe as they did are God's people? Doesn't make any sense to me.

the gospel is PRIMARILY to the jew and yet EQUALLY to the gentile

That is a contradictory statement.

because they, of all nations in the earth, were/are expecting the Messiah.

Breaking news, .... the messiah already came!

2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[Guest yod]

God's people in my view are those who have entered into that better covenant. The old covenant was clearly done away with and not renewed.

Breaking news....the New Covenant is ONLY given to the House of Judah and the House of Israel. Your point of entry is by faith in THEIR Messiah but it is given to them....and you are made a joint heir. jeremiah 31:31

Jews are God's people only if they have entered into that New Covenant by receiving the one with whom we have this covenant, Jesus Christ.

That is an interesting opinion but it doesn't line up with the word of God.

Jeremiah 31:37

This is what the LORD says:

"Only if the heavens above can be measured

and the foundations of the earth below be searched out

will I reject all the descendants of Israel

because of all they have done,"

declares the LORD .

I don't understand how you can think they are God's people when they look on Jesus and his followers as idolaters and despise the one who was sent to be their redeemer.

Here is where you drive me crazy, Smash.

This is totally a double standard. The jews percentage-wise are no different than the gentiles. Most gentiles are just as lost. Why do you constantly disparage jews for being lost in sin yet don't intellectually admit that they are no worse than gentiles?

WHy you monolithically condemn the jewish race when I can show you thousands of them who DO believe in Yeshua and that number is growing exponentially.

It's clear as day in the Talmud what they think of Jesus.

And many of those writings are done in response to christian persecution. Shall we condemn all christians today for the wickedness of the Crusades?

In the Bible those Jews who despised Him in this way were in His own words told they were not Abraham's children but were children of Satan and yet you say those today who still believe as they did are God's people? Doesn't make any sense to me.

And again...not all of the jews....or you would never have heard of Him.

QUOTE 

the gospel is PRIMARILY to the jew and yet EQUALLY to the gentile

That is a contradictory statement.

Take it up with the Apostle Paul because that is EXACTLY what he says in Romans 1:16

QUOTE 

because they, of all nations in the earth, were/are expecting the Messiah.

Breaking news, .... the messiah already came!

Duh!

A bunch of jews told us that a long, long, long time ago...

[sagz4Christ]

God's people in my view are those who have entered into that better covenant. The old covenant was clearly done away with and not renewed. Jews are God's people only if they have entered into that New Covenant by receiving the one with whom we have this covenant, Jesus Christ. I don't understand how you can think they are God's people when they look on Jesus and his followers as idolaters and despise the one who was sent to be their redeemer.

I am honestly wrestling with this and would like some clarification.

I know where you are coming from yod. And I think I may understand where you are coming from idolsmasher, but this one thing doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I should not have posted the whole chapter. Let me now just highlight a verse or two:

Romans 11

1 I say then, has God cast away His people?  Certainly not!  For I am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.

Then again in the same chapter:

7 What then?  Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

"God has given them a spirit of stupor,

Eyes that they should not see

And ears that they should not hear,

To this very day."

9 And David says:

"Let their table be a snare and a trap,

A stumbling block and a recompense to them.

10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,

And bow down their backs always."

11  I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall?  Certainly not!  But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

And one more:

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness on part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,

And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

27 For this is My covenant with them,

When I take away their sins."

Concerning the gosple they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

I see this as having a direct correlation to the argument at hand.

can anyone enlighten me as to this chapter?

~your servant in Christ