Salvation is of the jews

[Guest Benny]

As far as your bad teaching comment is concerned, I agree with that. But to say that Christians were their worst persecuters of Jews is not only false and misleading, but shows a lack of real understanding of the scriptures and history as well. It has been the Jews that were the worst persecuters of the Christian faith. That is both evedent in the New Testament as well as the writtings of the early (1st century) church leaders. I sudgest you read the New Testament a little closer, and possibly Justins first Apoplogy.

the only people that the jews persecuted were other jews whom they believed (wrongly) were traitors to their faith.

Where in the Bible did a gentile ever get persecuted by the jews for believing in Jesus?

Even so, that ended by the year 100 AD. The persecution that John speaks of in the Book of Revelation is from the Romans...Nero.

If you think that christians have not been the worst persecutors of jews then you simply don't know history. I suggest "Our Hands Are Stained With Blood" by Dr. Michael Brown. It is an easy read and it will break your heart as it did mine. You'll understand why I'm so passionate about this particular issue.

So much wrong has been done to the jews in the name of Christ....and the underlying premise is so subtle. I'm sure that you and Charlie and Idolsmasher are sincere about what you believe....and I'm also sure that you are sincerely misinformed.

A real Christian would never persecute anyone no matter who they are, or how badly they hate the true Christian faith. Just because someone calls themself a Christian, that doesn't accually mean they are one.

I used to think the same way...but the truth is that christians are still sinners. Martin Luther's writings laid the groundwork for the Third Reich to expel jews from Germany. Was he not a christian?

As George pointed out that you are not a Jew, I would say that you might consider converting

I already have. I'm a converted sinner.

Now I'm following biblical judaism....also known as christianity in some circles.

Would you even consider that you have been robbed of you heritage?

Did you forget to read acts or for that matter the letters written by Paul?

The Dialogue of Justin Martre, with Titus a Jew (130-150 AD)

Chapter XVII.-The Jews Sent Persons Through the Whole Earth to Spread Calumnies on Christians.

"For other nations have not inflicted on us and on Christ this wrong to such an extent as you have, who in very deed are the authors of the wicked prejudice against the Just One, and us who hold by Him. For after that you had crucified Him, the only blameless and righteous Man,-through whose swipes those who approach the Father by Him are healed,-when you knew that He had risen from the dead and ascended to heaven, as the prophets foretold He would, you not only did not repent of the wickedness which you had committed, but at that time you selected and sent out from Jerusalem chosen men through all the land to tell that the godless heresy of the Christians had sprung up, and to publish those things which all they who knew us not speak against us. So that you are the cause not only of your own unrighteousness, but in fact of that of all other men. And Isaiah cries justly: `By reason of you, My name is blasphemed among the Gentiles.'39 And: `Woe unto their soul! because they have devised an evil device against themselves, saying, Let us bind the righteous, for he is distasteful to us. Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their doings. Woe unto the wicked evil shall be rendered to him according to the works of his hands.'"

Saul who became Paul was one of those men sent out to do just what Justin said. He was assuredly not the last.

There is also historical records that back it up as well.

And just as I said before. Those people calling themselves Christians were not Christians. Anyone can put on the cloke of righteousness, but only a true Christian is truely righteous. A real Christians would never do harm to anyone for any reason. Not even in defence of his own life or the life of his family. And anyone that did such things is not a true Christian. You see, I don't believe true Christians willfuly commit sin. This may differ from some on this forum, but the scriptures bare me out on this point.

Hebrews 10

26: For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

To be sanctified is to be free from sin. No longer a servent to it. Meaning that you no longer have to sin.

I Peter 4

17: For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18: And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

A true Christian keeps the commandments of Christ which forbids violence to any man for any reason. Nonviolence is a part of the very foundation of the Christian faith. Which so many so-called "Christians" seem to conviently forget, just like so many other principles and teachings of Christ they seem to forget. A Christian simply cannot knowingly do those things contrary to the laws of God that are written on their heart. Anyone that does, is by their actions proving "who" they really serve.

[Tyler]

One only has to read the Book of Obadiah in the Bible to see that the Palestinians are in for a "heap" of trouble!!

Does anyone doubt that the God who personally fought for Israel against the Egyptians, is going to stand by while His people are being slaughtered, now that he has brought them back to the promised land, (which has been foretold for two thousand years?)

God will fight for His people once more, and what a TERRIBLE price will be paid, for opposing the will of the Lord!

Zechariah14:12

AND THIS IS THE PLAGUE WITH WHICH THE LORD WILL STRIKE ALL THE PEOPLE WHO FOUGHT AGAINST JERUSALEM:

THEIR FLESH SHALL DISSOLVE WHILE THEY STAND ON THEIR FEET,

THEIR EYES SHALL DISSOLVE IN THEIR SOCKETS,

AND THEIR TONGUES SHALL DISSOLVE IN THEIR MOUTHS.

Only Christ Saves

[Guest Benny]

I just love the way people pick and choose which scriptures they want, totally out of context to try and proove their points.

George being from Israel says that Christians among Jews in Israel are few. And that there far more Christian Palistinians. Those evil Palistinians Christians, they deserve to be slaughtered! In fact the vast majority of Jews in Israel are athiests. Are these Gods chosen people your talking about?

Revelations 7 says that only 144,000 Jews in palistine will be saved. Out of what? Over 6 million? The rest will be destroied by the angels of God. Yea sure God is going to destroy his chosen. I don't think so. The chosen of God are those that keep his commandments.

[Guest charlie]

<<Revelations 7 says that only 144,000 Jews in palistine will be saved. Out of what? Over 6 million? The rest will be destroied by the angels of God. Yea sure God is going to destroy his chosen. I don't think so. The chosen of God are those that keep his commandments.>>

That is one very good point Benny. I mentioned this briefly in another point that only one other poster commented on so I'll repeat it here.

These fundamentalists/evangelicals that are doing everything within their power to see that all the Jews are regathered together in Israel, (just doing their part to "help along" God's plan) never mention in their glee that all but 144,000 people are going to die a horrible death. (While they watch from above since they've been raptured.) Anyway, does this sound like Christian love to you? It sure doesn't to me. It sounds selfish and terribly misguided to me. With friends like these who needs enemies? They need to spend a little more time and effort trying to spread the gospel to the unbelieving Jew (and the Muslim) than to try to lure him/her to their death. {sigh}

[Guest yod]

A true Christian keeps the commandments of Christ which forbids violence to any man for any reason. Nonviolence is a part of the very foundation of the Christian faith. Which so many so-called "Christians" seem to conviently forget, just like so many other principles and teachings of Christ they seem to forget. A Christian simply cannot knowingly do those things contrary to the laws of God that are written on their heart. Anyone that does, is by their actions proving "who" they really serve.

::::applause:::::

I'm glad you seem to know this...and could not agree more. Your theory is correct in theoretical terms.

However, you and your confidants here are proof that people can be swayed into wrong thinking. The very things you espouse are the same things that were fed to christians who didn't know any better in earlier centuries. Just like Paul, most these christians were convinced they were doing "God's work".

"..for the serpent was the most subtle beast of the field."

So even though you think you are right it wouldn't take much of a history lesson to learn the horrible truth is something else. PLEASE get "Our Hands Are Stained With Blood" and check it out. There are volumes and volumes of books that can show the same thing but this one sums it up nicely and briefly. It's about $8 on Amazon. com

You will be amazed at how you are repeating the same mistakes that our forefathers did.

Revelations 7 says that only 144,000 Jews in palistine will be saved. Out of what? Over 6 million? The rest will be destroied by the angels of God. Yea sure God is going to destroy his chosen. I don't think so

Me either.

Actually it doesn't say that 144,000 is all that will be saved and it doesn't say that the rest will die either.

These are just young virgin men in the land. who will be chosen from the Tribes of Israel and sealed as special servants for the end-time. They have a specific purpose which is only implied.

It also says that NO ONE knows the song of the elders but these 144,000 (including you) so does that mean that only 144,000 people are saved?

Of course not if you follow the logic. You missed the point of the remnant being specifically chosen as powerful witnesses to the earth for this time. It doesn't exclude all others from being witnesses. In fact, Paul says that ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED and there will be more than 144,000 when that happens.

They need to spend a little more time and effort trying to spread the gospel to the unbelieving Jew (and the Muslim) than to try to lure him/her to their death. {sigh}

That's what I do. How about you?

Part of my "mission" is opposing those who spread misinformation and rumors. That's why I'm discussing this with you guys.....for all the worthy boards to see and decide for themselves

[Guest charlie]

<<Part of my "mission" is opposing those who spread misinformation and rumors>>

It sure doesn't appear that way to me Yod. People have offered "proof" to back up the things they're saying but you either try to discredit the source or totally ignore the information. You think what you want to think. I've spent the last several years talking the same talk you're talking but there are just too many scriptures in the Bible that don't wash with this "talk". It finally occurred to me that perhaps the view that you are espousing (that I espoused until recently) could be the "wrong thinking". It's fine to stick up for people who are being persecuted it is not fine to ignore the persecution that those same people have perpetrated on others. Wrong is wrong no matter who's doing it. Is the book you suggested bias? Why should anyone read it? You call anything that disagrees with your view biased and untrustworthy so don't you think the same could apply here? We need to read information from both sides because there's two sides to every page. Maybe between the two we can reach a reasonable level of the "truth" of what's going on. Be careful that you don't become so engrossed in defending the Israeli side that you turn your eyes away from Jesus. This is hypothetical but if the anti-christ were to be Jewish, would you Yod oppose him? Or, would you call other Christians that stood up to him and opposed him anti-semetic? That's just a thought and something that used to run thru my mind occasionally. I guess that verse in the Bible that talks about the "elect" possibly being deceived had me thinking of all kinds of possible senarios.

gotta go get busy now.

[Guest Benny]

A true Christian keeps the commandments of Christ which forbids violence to any man for any reason. Nonviolence is a part of the very foundation of the Christian faith. Which so many so-called "Christians" seem to conviently forget, just like so many other principles and teachings of Christ they seem to forget. A Christian simply cannot knowingly do those things contrary to the laws of God that are written on their heart. Anyone that does, is by their actions proving "who" they really serve.

::::applause:::::

I'm glad you seem to know this...and could not agree more. Your theory is correct in theoretical terms.

However, you and your confidants here are proof that people can be swayed into wrong thinking. The very things you espouse are the same things that were fed to christians who didn't know any better in earlier centuries. Just like Paul, most these christians were convinced they were doing "God's work".

"..for the serpent was the most subtle beast of the field."

So even though you think you are right it wouldn't take much of a history lesson to learn the horrible truth is something else. PLEASE get "Our Hands Are Stained With Blood" and check it out. There are volumes and volumes of books that can show the same thing but this one sums it up nicely and briefly. It's about $8 on Amazon. com

You will be amazed at how you are repeating the same mistakes that our forefathers did.

Revelations 7 says that only 144,000 Jews in palistine will be saved. Out of what? Over 6 million? The rest will be destroied by the angels of God. Yea sure God is going to destroy his chosen. I don't think so

Me either.

Actually it doesn't say that 144,000 is all that will be saved and it doesn't say that the rest will die either.

These are just young virgin men in the land. who will be chosen from the Tribes of Israel and sealed as special servants for the end-time. They have a specific purpose which is only implied.

It also says that NO ONE knows the song of the elders but these 144,000 (including you) so does that mean that only 144,000 people are saved?

Of course not if you follow the logic. You missed the point of the remnant being specifically chosen as powerful witnesses to the earth for this time. It doesn't exclude all others from being witnesses. In fact, Paul says that ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED and there will be more than 144,000 when that happens.

They need to spend a little more time and effort trying to spread the gospel to the unbelieving Jew (and the Muslim) than to try to lure him/her to their death. {sigh}

That's what I do. How about you?

Part of my "mission" is opposing those who spread misinformation and rumors. That's why I'm discussing this with you guys.....for all the worthy boards to see and decide for themselves

"Actually it doesn't say that 144,000 is all that will be saved and it doesn't say that the rest will die either."

No it doesn't, but this verse does and it is talking about the same event in time since God never at any other time in history or in the scriptures commanded to "seal" his servants in their "forehead" except at this future event fortold by John in Revelations.

4: And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5: And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children,

That is God saying to kill everyone else.

PS I have noticed the neither you or any other Zionist on this forum addressing my post "Blessed is he that blesseth thee...". Whats the matter? That is usually the scripture that Zionists and Christians try to intimidate Christians into supportings Israels actions no matter what. Can't find a credible sounding arguement for the post?

[Guest yod]

First of all the verse you posted is from Ezekial, not Revelation. It could be speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD rather than the interpretation you gave it. No where does the Bible emphatically state that this will be the end-time scenario for Jerusalem. You are only implying it as you seem to like doing.

PS I have noticed the neither you or any other Zionist on this forum addressing my post "Blessed is he that blesseth thee...". Whats the matter? That is usually the scripture that Zionists and Christians try to intimidate Christians into supportings Israels actions no matter what. Can't find a credible sounding arguement for the post?

I don't know what you're talking about???

What was the question?

[Guest Benny]

First of all the verse you posted is from Ezekial, not Revelation. It could be speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD rather than the interpretation you gave it. No where does the Bible emphatically state that this will be the end-time scenario for Jerusalem. You are only implying it as you seem to like doing.

PS I have noticed the neither you or any other Zionist on this forum addressing my post "Blessed is he that blesseth thee...". Whats the matter? That is usually the scripture that Zionists and Christians try to intimidate Christians into supportings Israels actions no matter what. Can't find a credible sounding arguement for the post?

I don't know what you're talking about???

What was the question?

Show me where in the scriptures of the New Testament where the Lord commands Roman solders to destroy the temple. The scripture spacificly says the Lord gives these commands. And show me where in history or in the New Testament that God puts a seal on his servants in 70 A.D. You can't because it didn't happen. Your avoiding the central questions because you don't have the answer. The only place in the scriptures that these particular things happen are in Eze. 9 and Rev 7. And Ezekiel says all the people are killed except the ones with the seals. This never happened either. Babylon didn't kill all the people in Jerusalem neither did Rome. The passage in Ezekiel has to be talking about the 144,000 because those things didn't happen by Rome in 70 AD. Try to address the question. The seal in the forehead and everyone else killed by command of the Lord.

"PS I have noticed the neither you or any other Zionist on this forum addressing my post "Blessed is he that blesseth thee...". Whats the matter? That is usually the scripture that Zionists and Christians try to intimidate Christians into supportings Israels actions no matter what. Can't find a credible sounding arguement for the post?

[Guest yod]

Show me where in the scriptures of the New Testament where the Lord commands Roman solders to destroy the temple. The scripture spacificly says the Lord gives these commands. And show me where in history or in the New Testament that God puts a seal on his servants in 70 A.D. You can't because it didn't happen. Your avoiding the central questions because you don't have the answer. The only place in the scriptures that these particular things happen are in Eze. 9 and Rev 7. And Ezekiel says all the people are killed except the ones with the seals. This never happened either. Babylon didn't kill all the people in Jerusalem neither did Rome. The passage in Ezekiel has to be talking about the 144,000 because those things didn't happen by Rome in 70 AD. Try to address the question. The seal in the forehead and everyone else killed by command of the Lord.

Oh...now I see why I didn't follow the logic. It's not logical.

You think that the "mark" of Ezekial is the same "mark" in Revelation? It's not. In Ezekial it is just the men of Jerusalem who lament over the abominations being done in the house of the Lord. In Revelation, it's 12,000 from every tribe of Israel.

And I should have gone to passage before saying that was 70 AD...because you are correct that it isn't. This is 586 BC.

Nebuchanezzar destroyed Israel in 3 stages. Ezekial was carried off during the second deportation in 597 BC along with Daniel. His time of prophecy overlapped with Jeremiah for a while. They both spoke of the 3rd and final destruction of Jerusalem that was to come in 586 BC.

If you will read the book of Ezekial in it's context you will find that in Chapter 11, God's promises that they will be dispersed into all the earth (which happened) and that He will be a santuary to them in these places (it happens even today) and that He would bring them back and give them the land of Israel (started in 1948 but still happening right now)

So it's another example of bad teaching that has given you the wrong impression of God's plan for the jews. Just as I've tried to tell you guys, you've been robbed of your jewish heritage by this kind of stuff. It's worldly thinking from misguided minds.