st. Worm Posted July 14, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 14, 2006 It was a noble attempt Smalcald and a good thought to start the thread but in all honesty the idea that salvation is 100% the work of God and 0% the work of man is completely foreign outside of the Lutheran and Reformed churches today. Most believers in this day are determined to claim just a little bit of glory for themselves whether that involves making the right decision or humbling oneself or doing whatever one must do in order to "cooperate" with God in the act of justification. The thought that sinful man is completely incapable of doing those things cannot even be comprehended by most in our humanistic culture. The whole concept is simply too strange. The will of man and self determination reign supreme nowadays. Their only answer as to why some are saved and the rest are lost never involves God, but always points toward man's will. Blessings, sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted July 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.26 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 14, 2006 Grace to you, This is from the Ministries Statement of Faith. I believe it says it all; We believe that salvation is a gift received by faith alone, in Messiah alone, and is expressed in the individual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted July 14, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 14, 2006 Grace to you, This is from the Ministries Statement of Faith. I believe it says it all; We believe that salvation is a gift received by faith alone, in Messiah alone, and is expressed in the individual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.93 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Most believers in this day are determined to claim just a little bit of glory for themselves Saint - Where are you getting the notion that any of us are claiming any glory? That's not what chosing/receiving/accepting means. The term "acceptance" I think is the issue, Dave. For Smalcald and me the fact that Jesus accepts us is infinitely more important than our acceptance of Him. The Bible does not talk about our acceptance of Christ that I am aware of anymore then it talks about inviting Jesus into our hearts. I hate to use that doctrines of men term but I think the shoe actually fits in this case. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name (John 1:12) You see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted July 14, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 14, 2006 Most believers in this day are determined to claim just a little bit of glory for themselves Saint - Where are you getting the notion that any of us are claiming any glory? That's not what chosing/receiving/accepting means. The term "acceptance" I think is the issue, Dave. For Smalcald and me the fact that Jesus accepts us is infinitely more important than our acceptance of Him. The Bible does not talk about our acceptance of Christ that I am aware of anymore then it talks about inviting Jesus into our hearts. I hate to use that doctrines of men term but I think the shoe actually fits in this case. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name (John 1:12) You see? See this. Receive is not the same as accept nebula. I have received faith from God, faith that has caused me to believe. It was not my acceptance of it that caused the receipt. I did not do anything on my end to accept it. That is synergism. I received God's grace unto salvation. It was not because of my decision to accept it that brought God's grace. Grace is grace, completely unmerited. That is why I say those who insist that they had a part in their salvation by their "acceptance" of Christ are seeking their own glory by claiming their part in the process. Now, do you see? sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted July 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.26 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 14, 2006 Grace to you, Never accepted or receieved, never applied. Again; We believe that salvation is a gift received by faith alone, in Messiah alone, and is expressed in the individual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted July 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Author Share Posted July 14, 2006 It was a noble attempt Smalcald and a good thought to start the thread but in all honesty the idea that salvation is 100% the work of God and 0% the work of man is completely foreign outside of the Lutheran and Reformed churches today. Most believers in this day are determined to claim just a little bit of glory for themselves whether that involves making the right decision or humbling oneself or doing whatever one must do in order to "cooperate" with God in the act of justification. The thought that sinful man is completely incapable of doing those things cannot even be comprehended by most in our humanistic culture. The whole concept is simply too strange. The will of man and self determination reign supreme nowadays. Their only answer as to why some are saved and the rest are lost never involves God, but always points toward man's will. Blessings, sw Well yes, I doubt it will change any minds in a great way, however I think it is central to some differences and thus I kind of wanted to put out there in a organized way what those differences were. But this idea of us cooperating with God to save ourselves is a very strong idea, and has roots, which are both very American and very modern. It is appealing. But it is very helpful I think to at least talk about this. Also hopefully it will at least get out there that God is so merciful and powerful at the same time, we don't have to worry about having the "right" born again experience, or any born again experience. That we can gladly and fully continue in the faith that God has given us in Christ without worrying if we came to that faith in the right way. Knowing that faith in Christ alone, is fully evidence of being born again, regardless of the requirements that we may want to add on to faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted July 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.26 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 14, 2006 Grace to you, Smalcad, Your statements would be true as they stand if someone were attempting to add something to the work of God. However what we have stated time and again is that we are saying you need to unwrap the Gift and receive the Grace lest it be left unapplied. It is in accords with the Word of God by which the Statement of Faith of this very Ministry is based. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.93 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 14, 2006 See this. Receive is not the same as accept nebula. I have received faith from God, faith that has caused me to believe. It was not my acceptance of it that caused the receipt. I did not do anything on my end to accept it. That is synergism. I received God's grace unto salvation. It was not because of my decision to accept it that brought God's grace. Grace is grace, completely unmerited. That is why I say those who insist that they had a part in their salvation by their "acceptance" of Christ are seeking their own glory by claiming their part in the process. Now, do you see? No. Borrowing an idea from Dave's illustration - I have a cat. I purchase and offer her food and water. She has done nothing to earn this food and water from me. Yet in order to receive the food and water, she has to actually walk over to the bowls and partake of these. Food and water are not forced down her throat unless she says no - food and water are graced upon her and she accepts this gift and partakes. Is doing so taking any glory for the gift of food and water bestowed on her? If so, how so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st. Worm Posted July 14, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,447 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/26/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 14, 2006 See this. Receive is not the same as accept nebula. I have received faith from God, faith that has caused me to believe. It was not my acceptance of it that caused the receipt. I did not do anything on my end to accept it. That is synergism. I received God's grace unto salvation. It was not because of my decision to accept it that brought God's grace. Grace is grace, completely unmerited. That is why I say those who insist that they had a part in their salvation by their "acceptance" of Christ are seeking their own glory by claiming their part in the process. Now, do you see? No. Borrowing an idea from Dave's illustration - I have a cat. I purchase and offer her food and water. She has done nothing to earn this food and water from me. Yet in order to receive the food and water, she has to actually walk over to the bowls and partake of these. Food and water are not forced down her throat unless she says no - food and water are graced upon her and she accepts this gift and partakes. Is doing so taking any glory for the gift of food and water bestowed on her? If so, how so? Your analogy does not work in this case. We are controlled by sin prior to God's gracious work of regeneration. We cannot see the "bowls" in our spiritual blindness. The bowls do not exist for us just as Jesus does not exist for the unregenerate. We are no more likely to "accept" Jesus in the sense you think we can then a physically dead man can walk to the bowl and have a drink of water or a bite of food. Dead means dead whether physically or spiritually. "For you were dead in your sins and transgressions!" You completely underestimate the effects sin and the Fall on humanity. Your theology and doctrine are informed by the revivalists. sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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