Faith and salvation, where do they come from?

[EricH]

Here is a passage that speaks directly to this issue:

for "Whoever will call upon the name of the LORD will be saved." How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:13-14 NASB

While I agree that without God's lifting the veil of blindness, no one can believe, scripture is equally clear that when God so calls a person they will respond in belief and faith. There are no "secret saved". When God calls a person He has ordained (as seen in the passage above) that this will occur through hearing and response. And that response is faith, belief, and repentance.

For one to posit that there is a secret grace that can be received by an individual without the individual's knowledge or response, is not a biblical concept. We see no such example in scripture. Every example of a person who is in right relationship with God, so arrived because of a decision of faith. It may be that God is the one who enabled them to have that faith, but responce is part of the process. In order for people to be saved they must call on the name of the Lord. Otherwise God would not have put such a premium on sending a preacher so they could hear.

Be cautious here. Let us make sure that we are not preaching another Gospel. One based on denominational distinctives, rather than the Word of God.

[st. Worm]

Here is a passage that speaks directly to this issue:

for "Whoever will call upon the name of the LORD will be saved." How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:13-14 NASB

While I agree that without God's lifting the veil of blindness, no one can believe, scripture is equally clear that when God so calls a person they will respond in belief and faith. There are no "secret saved". When God calls a person He has ordained (as seen in the passage above) that this will occur through hearing and response. And that response is faith, belief, and repentance.

For one to posit that there is a secret grace that can be received by an individual without the individual's knowledge or response, is not a biblical concept. We see no such example in scripture. Every example of a person who is in right relationship with God, so arrived because of a decision of faith. It may be that God is the one who enabled them to have that faith, but responce is part of the process. In order for people to be saved they must call on the name of the Lord. Otherwise God would not have put such a premium on sending a preacher so they could hear.

Be cautious here. Let us make sure that we are not preaching another Gospel. One based on denominational distinctives, rather than the Word of God.

I recall you are pretty much Calvinistic in your soteriology with regard to justification Eric. If so, your understanding is vastly different than that of nebula and Dave among others. I don't think I agree with your terminology however of "response of faith". This implies decision theololgy. Our response of belief is only because of the 100% gift of faith not a decison we make. Repentance and belief is our response to the regeneration and faith that God graciously gives us. I am certain that is not what nebula and Dave are saying from their other posts on the subject.

Bottom line Eric, we are back on the Calvin versus Arminius versus Pelagius topic. Posters like nebula and Dave are either Arminians or Pelagians and there is no other way around it. I know you want to reconcile this but it is simply not reconcilable when someone claims it is a decision of their will that is the ultimate cause of their justification or belief. As I said, dead men don't make decisions. Dead men brought back to life by God make responses however much like Lazerous walking out of the tomb. And we know not all men are given the specific grace to do that by God.

sw

[nebula]

Dead means dead whether physically or spiritually.

If dead man can't say, "Yes," then dead men cannot say, "No," either.

Therefore, you cannot chose to not accept Christ, either, by your argument.

Seriously -

The picture I get from what you are saying is that God's grace and salvation are like us being put on a hospital bed and stuck with an injection needle that fills us with "come to life" fluid (grace) and we are brought to life.

But if that is so, how can the needle and fluid be rejected? One would have to come to life first, chose to reject the life that had been given to them, and then go back to being dead.

Edited July 14, 2006 by nebula

[st. Worm]

Dead means dead whether physically or spiritually.

If dead man can't say, "Yes," then dead men cannot say, "No," either.

Therefore, you cannot chose to not accept Christ, either, by your argument.

Seriously -

The picture I get from what you are saying is that God's grace and salvation are like us being put on a hospital bed and stuck with an injection needle that fills us with "come to life" fluid (grace) and we are brought to life.

But if that is so, how can the needle and fluid be rejected? One would have to come to life first, chose to reject the life that had been given to them, and then go back to being dead.

Such is the mystery of salvation. The spiritually dead can reject the goodness of God. Besides, spiritual death does not mean inactivity like physical death. The spiritually dead choose freely according to their inclination and their inclination is always towards sin and against God. However only God can awaken dead sinners. It can become very mindblowing when we throw election into the mix. The bottom line is, those who are saved receive God's grace in a special way. Those who are lost have no one to blame but themselves. The issue of how we are saved can be almost as distressing as why we, who are no more deserving of salvation than others, are saved, while the others are lost.

sw

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

The bottom line is, those who are saved receive God's grace in a special way.

Not so brother.

The Gospel is available to all men and Gods will is;

2Pe

[dakota190]

It was a noble attempt Smalcald and a good thought to start the thread but in all honesty the idea that salvation is 100% the work of God and 0% the work of man is completely foreign outside of the Lutheran and Reformed churches today. Most believers in this day are determined to claim just a little bit of glory for themselves whether that involves making the right decision or humbling oneself or doing whatever one must do in order to "cooperate" with God in the act of justification. The thought that sinful man is completely incapable of doing those things cannot even be comprehended by most in our humanistic culture. The whole concept is simply too strange. The will of man and self determination reign supreme nowadays. Their only answer as to why some are saved and the rest are lost never involves God, but always points toward man's will.

Blessings,

sw

i greatly disagree with you. when i gave my life over to Jesus, there was no glory grabbing. i don't know what type of experience you had in accepting the Lord as your savior. mine was humbling, it was a final surrender of my will to my Lord. the decision to surrender does belong to man, whether you like it or approve of it. it definitely, is not a grabbing of some of Gods' glory. God will not allow that anyway. he will not accept you, if that is why you are on your knees'. the verse that states these truths may not be written so precisely, that they come right out and say it, but the message is there. if you get ran over by a big truck, does someone have to run upto your car and tell you it was a tractor trailer, or can you figure that out for yourself.

i am not trying to be snotty or insulting, but too many people on this board like to argue a concept into the ground, that is obvious from the start, just because the actual sentence is not phrased out for them. that is all part of reading comprehension. it sounds like your sour attitude towards "man" is affecting your judgement toward scripture.

by the way in another post, where you drug snow4jc, over the coals calling her and her post self rightous, and that according to her views she must not have friends. well in your above post, where you continue in your rant, stating, how blah, blah , blah, "can't even be comprehended by most in our humanistic culture." it must be tough being so intellectually above everyone else. this may not be self rightous, but next time you decide to shame another, reflect on your own pomposity. ask yourself, is that a Godly trait. while you pat yourself on your own back, reflecting how dumb everyone else is, being outside of the Luthern church and all.

by the way humbling yourself, repenting, and accepting salvation is not a work of man. it is according to Gods' plan.

[st. Worm]

It was a noble attempt Smalcald and a good thought to start the thread but in all honesty the idea that salvation is 100% the work of God and 0% the work of man is completely foreign outside of the Lutheran and Reformed churches today. Most believers in this day are determined to claim just a little bit of glory for themselves whether that involves making the right decision or humbling oneself or doing whatever one must do in order to "cooperate" with God in the act of justification. The thought that sinful man is completely incapable of doing those things cannot even be comprehended by most in our humanistic culture. The whole concept is simply too strange. The will of man and self determination reign supreme nowadays. Their only answer as to why some are saved and the rest are lost never involves God, but always points toward man's will.

Blessings,

sw

i greatly disagree with you. when i gave my life over to Jesus, there was no glory grabbing. i don't know what type of experience you had in accepting the Lord as your savior. mine was humbling, it was a final surrender of my will to my Lord. the decision to surrender does belong to man, whether you like it or approve of it. it definitely, is not a grabbing of some of Gods' glory. God will not allow that anyway. he will not accept you, if that is why you are on your knees'. the verse that states these truths may not be written so precisely, that they come right out and say it, but the message is there. if you get ran over by a big truck, does someone have to run upto your car and tell you it was a tractor trailer, or can you figure that out for yourself.

i am not trying to be snotty or insulting, but too many people on this board like to argue a concept into the ground, that is obvious from the start, just because the actual sentence is not phrased out for them. that is all part of reading comprehension. it sounds like your sour attitude towards "man" is affecting your judgement toward scripture.

by the way in another post, where you drug snow4jc, over the coals calling her and her post self rightous, and that according to her views she must not have friends. well in your above post, where you continue in your rant, stating, how blah, blah , blah, "can't even be comprehended by most in our humanistic culture." it must be tough being so intellectually above everyone else. this may not be self rightous, but next time you decide to shame another, reflect on your own pomposity. ask yourself, is that a Godly trait. while you pat yourself on your own back, reflecting how dumb everyone else is, being outside of the Luthern church and all.

by the way humbling yourself, repenting, and accepting salvation is not a work of man. it is according to Gods' plan.

"i am not trying to be snotty or insulting,... ."

Yes, I can feel the love!

[st. Worm]

Grace to you,

The bottom line is, those who are saved receive God's grace in a special way.

Not so brother.

The Gospel is available to all men and Gods will is;

2Pe

[nebula]

Such is the mystery of salvation. The spiritually dead can reject the goodness of God. Besides, spiritual death does not mean inactivity like physical death. The spiritually dead choose freely according to their inclination and their inclination is always towards sin and against God. However only God can awaken dead sinners. It can become very mindblowing when we throw election into the mix. The bottom line is, those who are saved receive God's grace in a special way. Those who are lost have no one to blame but themselves. The issue of how we are saved can be almost as distressing as why we, who are no more deserving of salvation than others, are saved, while the others are lost.

Pray tell, when did you receive God's grace?

When did you go from being dead to being alive in Christ?

[Guest shiloh357]

See this. Receive is not the same as accept nebula.

This is falacious reasoning. Recieve and accept are completely synonomous terms. You might as well try to argue that "chopping down the tree and "cutting down the tree" are not the same thing. This is a faulty premise that you are building on.

I have received faith from God, faith that has caused me to believe. It was not my acceptance of it that caused the receipt.

Again, you are trying to make create a fake distinction between these words. Both words involve a conscious decision on the part of the recipient.

I did not do anything on my end to accept it. That is synergism. I received God's grace unto salvation. It was not because of my decision to accept it that brought God's grace.

Acceptance is not synergism where this issue is concerned. Syngergism only applies to those who think that they must perform good works in addition to faith in Christ.

Grace is grace, completely unmerited. That is why I say those who insist that they had a part in their salvation by their "acceptance" of Christ are seeking their own glory by claiming their part in the process.

Accepting the grace of God has nothing to do with "meriting" it. Merit comes from a sense of entitlement. Those who attempt to merit salvation, do so because they feel that simply grace cannot be accepted freely, but that it can only accepted when one has done enough good works to warrant being offered salvation.