Faith and salvation, where do they come from?

[st. Worm]

Repentance and belief are the signs and result of grace, not the cause of it.

But you still have to repent and believe.

But it is not a requirement for grace. It is the result of a regeneration.

[nebula]

I didn't say it was required for grace.

I know that you believe that you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure that you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

[Guest shiloh357]

You said "accept" and "receiver" are not the same words, yet according to the dictionary, "to receive" is the first description of the word "accept."

Again -

Do you consider "receive" to be a noun, a state of being? Or a verb, something you do?

Again nebula - accept and receive do not NECESSARILY mean the same thing. While accept generally includes receive in an active sense, receive does not always mean in an active sense. Receive cannot always be used as accept. Receive can be a passive term. I continue to give examples which you continue to ignore. When you receive pornographic spam email are you saying you have accepted it? You must have if you really believe accept and receive are always the same thing. I repeat, accept usually includes receive. Receive may or may not involve acceptance. We receive the gift of faith. Our acceptance of it is not the determining factor of that reception.

sw

The problem is that you have yet to demonstrate that "receive" is used in a passive sense relative to salvation. That is simply a claim you have made. Can you bring up one instance from the New Testament where it specifically outlines your assertion? It seems you are trying to fit your distinction between accept and receive in to the Bible, rather than letting the Bible be the final authority.

[st. Worm]

I didn't say it was required for grace.

I know that you believe that you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure that you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

I think you are now confusing yourself!

One of the problems is that at some point many churches and believers stopped using terms like justification. It is a very important term however. What does the Reformation theme of justification by faith mean to you? Why does God say I am now declared just?

sw

[Fiosh]

Hi brothers and sisters,

I just read thru this entire thread, and I'm not even clear on what you are arguing about. The best understanding I have of the debate is that one side is arguing that faith comes by grace and you have no choice but to receive it and gain salvation. The other side is arguing that the individual must, by choice, accept the gift of grace in order to be saved.

Is that correct?

One thing that puzzles me. st. worm seems to be equating grace with faith. (he's not on line just now) Am I "hearing" him correctly? My definition of grace is not identical to that of faith. He also used the term "special grace". ???

st. worm, please define "grace" and "special grace".

Thanks,

Fiosh

[st. Worm]

Hi brothers and sisters,

I just read thru this entire thread, and I'm not even clear on what you are arguing about. The best understanding I have of the debate is that one side is arguing that faith comes by grace and you have no choice but to receive it and gain salvation. The other side is arguing that the individual must, by choice, accept the gift of grace in order to be saved.

Is that correct?

One thing that puzzles me. st. worm seems to be equating grace with faith. (he's not on line just now) Am I "hearing" him correctly? My definition of grace is not identical to that of faith. He also used the term "special grace". ???

st. worm, please define "grace" and "special grace".

Thanks,

Fiosh

Fiosh, the Bible teaches that one must be born again in order to be saved. That is an independent act of God. Not all receive that special grace. That is why some are saved and others are not. I hope I am not misstating anyone's views but I believe nebula, dave and others believe being born again is the result of some action we must first take.

Obviously God gives a general grace to all just allowing us all to live. However we know not all are saved. Its takes a special grace from God for that, as he shows mercy to some while allowing others to perish in their sins.

And to answer your other concern, I am not saying grace and faith are the same thing.

sw

[st. Worm]

Hi brothers and sisters,

I just read thru this entire thread, and I'm not even clear on what you are arguing about. The best understanding I have of the debate is that one side is arguing that faith comes by grace and you have no choice but to receive it and gain salvation. The other side is arguing that the individual must, by choice, accept the gift of grace in order to be saved.

Is that correct?

One thing that puzzles me. st. worm seems to be equating grace with faith. (he's not on line just now) Am I "hearing" him correctly? My definition of grace is not identical to that of faith. He also used the term "special grace". ???

st. worm, please define "grace" and "special grace".

Thanks,

Fiosh

Fiosh, the Bible teaches that one must be born again in order to be saved. That is an independent act of God. Not all receive that special grace. That is why some are saved and others are not. I hope I am not misstating anyone's views but I believe nebula, dave and others believe being born again is the result of some action we must first take.

Obviously God gives a general grace to all just allowing us all to live. However we know not all are saved. Its takes a special grace from God for that, as he shows mercy to some while allowing others to perish in their sins.

And to answer your other concern, I am not saying grace and faith are the same thing.

sw

[st. Worm]

You said "accept" and "receiver" are not the same words, yet according to the dictionary, "to receive" is the first description of the word "accept."

Again -

Do you consider "receive" to be a noun, a state of being? Or a verb, something you do?

Again nebula - accept and receive do not NECESSARILY mean the same thing. While accept generally includes receive in an active sense, receive does not always mean in an active sense. Receive cannot always be used as accept. Receive can be a passive term. I continue to give examples which you continue to ignore. When you receive pornographic spam email are you saying you have accepted it? You must have if you really believe accept and receive are always the same thing. I repeat, accept usually includes receive. Receive may or may not involve acceptance. We receive the gift of faith. Our acceptance of it is not the determining factor of that reception.

sw

The problem is that you have yet to demonstrate that "receive" is used in a passive sense relative to salvation. That is simply a claim you have made. Can you bring up one instance from the New Testament where it specifically outlines your assertion? It seems you are trying to fit your distinction between accept and receive in to the Bible, rather than letting the Bible be the final authority.

It is by grace you have been saved, though faith --- and this not of yourselves, it is a gift from God. Faith is received as a gift. It is not given to us and received by us as a consequence of our acceptance of it.

sw

[nebula]

I think you are now confusing yourself!

No, I am not.

I have asked you questions, and instead of answering them, you state your claims totally apart from what I have said.

So, I will do you the honor of directly answering your question only after you do me the honor of directly answering my questions.

Fair enough?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

I hope I am not misstating anyone's views but I believe nebula, dave and others believe being born again is the result of some action we must first take.

Let me clarify my position for the last time here.

It is Gods work and Word that brings us to Salvation. He gives us Faith.

However we must choose to agree with Him.

There is no action that we first must take. Although I will add that Gods eyes and Spirit are searching to and from throughout the earth. Seeking a heart that is Truly His. He wants us to partner with Him in His perfect Will. Which is that no man should perish.

God has also stated that He will come and knock on the door of our heart. It is then incumbent upon us to open the door. So that He may come in and sup with us.

There is an action upon gaining hearing and thus Faith. Yet no man may boast for apart from God and His Word. There would be no hearing and then no subsequent Faith.

If we do not act upon the action of God, we will remain dead and the faith that God desires to give us is useless. Neither will the Salvation of our Lord be applied.

I cannot make it any more plain and neither will I debate this any longer.

Peace,

Dave