Women in the Church today

July 17, 2006

Scripture clearly teaches that women should not be pastors. I don't understand it; I don't like it; but I accept it. God says so.
No, scripture does not say women cannot be pastors. Please see the links I gave earlier. Pastor is a gift, not an office or official ruling position. Women are not excluded from the gifts of the Spirit.

Read 1 Timothy 2:12

Look up the word pastor. You'll find that it is another word for minister.

If you're not going to pay attention to one rule, why pay attention to any of them?

This is not a man woman issue...it's a what God said issue.

July 17, 2006

Read 1 Timothy 2:12

Look up the word pastor. You'll find that it is another word for minister.

If you're not going to pay attention to one rule, why pay attention to any of them?

This is not a man woman issue...it's a what God said issue.
This is covered in the links I gave, which no one apparently even read. But a pastor is a minister or servant, which is the very same word used of several women Paul mentioned. Yep, it's what God said.

You're right, I didn't go to your link. I have a bible...that's the only link I need.

If you don't want to believe this then don't. No one's forcing you.

July 17, 2006

You're right, I didn't go to your link. I have a bible...that's the only link I need.

If you don't want to believe this then don't. No one's forcing you.
Then why are you here? I provided links that help explain the context, language, etc. The articles are by people who know the original languages and have the credentials to help us better understand the original writings. If you don't value the input of others in the Body of Christ, and feel that you can learn nothing from others' studies, then by all means, don't read my links or posts or anybody else's. No one's forcing you do listen to others; all we can do is make the offer. I've gained much from listening to others, and someday I hope you'll do that too.

Never said I never learned anything here...never said I didn't value other's input...never said I didn't learn from other peoples studies.

You said all those things.

What I said is that I didn't go to your link.

Floatingaxe · July 17, 2006

Well, Phoebe was a pastor. Do not tell me she was a servant in the sense of the weaker helping the stronger--she was a pastor or servant in the sense of the strong leading the weak. The word used for servant in the scriptural passage of Romans 16:1 is "diakonos" in Greek. This word is used everywhere in the NT to designate the office of "minister". This same word is used to denote the office that Phobe had in Cenchrea, but somehow the bias of the translators entered here and was translated as "servant"(upon encountering a female!). Both translations are correct, but the wrong connotation has been taken. Pastors indeed ARE servants! Elsewhere, wherever a minister was spoken of, if he was male, the word "diakonos" was transcribed as "minister", where "servant" is just as appropriate.

When Paul spoke of Phoebe as a helper of many as well as himself, he used the word, "prostatis", meaning "helper". In this sense, the word, "prostatis" means helping in the manner of one with authority, a master, a leader. This word was used by Josephus in describing Caesar, one of supreme authority. A leader is a helper, and in this sense, it denotes one who helps from a place of authority and strength, not one who helps a strong person out of a place of lesser strength.

Edited July 17, 2006 by Floatingaxe

Floatingaxe · July 17, 2006

Hmmmm..had a spot of trouble!

Edited July 17, 2006 by Floatingaxe

Floatingaxe · July 17, 2006

Sorry, this was a duplicate!

Edited July 17, 2006 by Floatingaxe

July 17, 2006

Greetings ~ Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem+

There are alot of churches in the area where I live that now have women Pastors.

Is the reason for this because there are less men choosing to study to become a Pastor?

Is the reason because women Pastors have more compassion for people?

I know the Bible states, "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says." ICorinthians 14: 34.

"As even the law says." Does this mean the law of Moses?

How far does this Bible verse extend?

Does it apply to say Worthy Boards?

There are alot of women who are members of WBs. I for one. We all know the church is made up of Christian men and women. We are a body, not necessarly in a building.

Heavenly Father, I pray that everyone will read this topic carefully. I pray that you will give them the right words to share with us. I pray that you Bless All with your Patience and Joy, in Jesus' name, Amen.+++

Snow

I do not believe that there should be women pastor, bishops, ministers etc..it is not the order of God's law..God, man, woman..in this order..

Worthy is a fellowhip hall..it is supposed to be a place of that anyhow. If this is a place of fellowship, then I would have to say that is what we are ALL invited to participate in it and there is nothing wrong with women being part of this and sharing.

Fiosh · July 17, 2006

Greetings ~ Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem+

There are alot of churches in the area where I live that now have women Pastors.

Is the reason for this because there are less men choosing to study to become a Pastor?

Is the reason because women Pastors have more compassion for people?

I know the Bible states, "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says." ICorinthians 14: 34.

"As even the law says." Does this mean the law of Moses?

How far does this Bible verse extend?

Does it apply to say Worthy Boards?

There are alot of women who are members of WBs. I for one. We all know the church is made up of Christian men and women. We are a body, not necessarly in a building.

Heavenly Father, I pray that everyone will read this topic carefully. I pray that you will give them the right words to share with us. I pray that you Bless All with your Patience and Joy, in Jesus' name, Amen.+++

Snow

I cannot take the time to write right now, but here are some links. This issue is much bigger than a surface reading of a few select passages as has been the tradition, but involves many factors.

http://theology.fether.net/index.php?id=353

http://theology.fether.net/index.php?whichone=1 (scroll down to the Ws)

http://www.equalitycentral.com/eca/index.html

http://www.equalitycentral.com/forum/

Ok. I read "Good News for Women" from your link. It's more illogical than the "magic bullet" theory.

Groothuis takes Scripture and twists it to try to make it mean what she wants it to mean---she does not succeed. It's a weak attempt at best.

1. Groothuis: "The logic of gender hierarchy says that women are "equal in being but unequal in function". In other words, women are only equal in terms of salvation, but subservient to men in all other areas, based entirely on gender."

No one is saying that women are "subservient to men....." She throws out this inflammatory statement which will have the (desired?) effect to create an emotional reaction in women. It's not pertinent at all to the discussion of women pastors.

2. Groothuuis: "In the same breath that Paul states "there is no male or female", he also states "there is no slave or free, no Jew or Greek" (Gal. 3:28). So there is no difference between the status of women under the new covenant and that of gentiles or slaves. ... One cannot have subservience for women but not also for gentiles and slaves. "

Here she takes Paul out of context and attempts to make him say what she wants him to say. Paul is speaking to our equal status as children of God, not our roles in the church. Jesus is equal to the Father---but He does not attempt to usurp the role of the Father or the Holy Spirit.

3. Groothuis: " To say that women are by nature destined to play a subservient role to men is a statement of being, not function. "

Again, no one is claiming this at all.

4. Groothuis quotes Paul Jewett: "Since the church is the bride of Christ and therefore feminine to him, one could just as well reason that the universal priesthood of all believers should find its individual expression in the woman rather than in the man, an inference which theologians, as males, have never drawn."

I don't feel the need to comment; it's ludicrous on its own merit.

And it goes on and on.......

Sorry, I'm not buying it. There is no room for feminism----at least the kind that tries to manipulate Scripture to grab at power and status----in Christianity.

Men and women are equal in God's eyes; but they are not the same.

My boss has authority over me. But that does not make her better. It's her role. I accept it. And I give her the respect she is entitled to. In turn, she supports me in my role.

Twenty years ago, I would be making the same arguments you are, 2thePoint. But as I mature in faith, I realize that the more I "kick against the goad" the harder it is to live deeply in Christ. God knows what He's doing. Go with it. He'll bless you for it.

God bless you, sister.

Peace,

Fiosh

July 17, 2006

You're right, I didn't go to your link. I have a bible...that's the only link I need.

Never said I never learned anything here...never said I didn't value other's input...never said I didn't learn from other peoples studies.

You said all those things.

What I said is that I didn't go to your link.

I quoted your very own words: "I have a bible... that's the only link I need." That is a statement indicating your unwillingness to consider other interpretations than your own. So yes, you did in fact say you never learn anything here etc.

There are many who have their minds made up, but sometimes I post anyway for the lurkers who may be undecided. I hate injustice, lies, and false teachings, so I try to bring balance to the discussion. But clearly discussion is not what most people want.

The information is there for any who want to know the whole issue. For those who are content as they are, I have no clue why they'd even read a thread like this. I plant seed, but only God can make it grow.

If you say so.

st. Worm · July 17, 2006

Thanks Floatingaxe!

SW:
You've shown yourself in the past to be unwilling to converse in a civilized fashion, so I'll briefly make some points but I will not be dragged into another mud wrestling contest.

Women pastors is a new invention of those denominations who no longer believe what the Bible says on the subject and who also reject 2000 years of church history.
You've got that completely backwards. Instead of egalitarians appealing to culture and tradition to defend their views, it's the masculists.* The Bible says what it says and Paul meant what he said. I do not appeal to history or tradition, because even as the NT was being written the apostles were battling against heresy, especially that of Gnosticism. The Gnostics taught that women were intrinsically evil and could not be saved, and that God could not have come in the flesh. So I am glad to be numbered among those who "reject 2000 years of church history", for it goes agains the Bible. I still believe the Bible, but masculists apparently don't like it.

*Mascuilists refers to the idea that men must dominate and rule. It does not seek equality but hierarchy. This is nothing less than an attempt to "lord it over" people, not based on gifting or ability, but on gender. You might as well discriminate on the basis of race.

The verse regarding women's silence in church is clearly referring to preaching.
You have not defined the difference between preaching and prophecy, and you dare to suggest that women must not obey the great commission by denying "go into all the world and preach the gospel" to women! Neither have you taken even a cursory look at the arguments presented in the links I provided. But I'm not surprised.

All you have to do is look at the consequences of churches and denominations that have begun ordaining women. All have gone theologically liberal and some now even do not profess Christ. Many are hotbeds of nothing but militant feminism. Most will soon ordain homosexuals and at least one has already.
Give me a break. No churches led by MEN are teaching heresy?? Women are to blame for this?? Hogwash. What else can you blame us for? All the evils of mankind? You'd be in the company of many "church fathers", such as Luther, who did that very thing and viewed women as only having worth as child bearers. Sick. This is a typical domineering slippery slope: women in leadership must mean heresy. If that were true, then you'd still have to blame the men, who ARE SUPPOSED TO BE "COVERING" women! Where there is authority there is responsibility, so if you want the glory you must also take the blame. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Think! Look at the consequences of "male headship" in the number of battered PASTOR'S WIVES. Old friends of ours are divorcing because the man sold their home without consulting his wife, as if she were a child or a slave. Half the people Jesus died for are not allowed to use the gifts of the Spirit, does that honor God?

NO. But I'm speaking to a brick wall. Rant on, but the articles are there to refute you. I've said my piece.

The church went for nearly 2000 years without ordaining women pastors and with good reason. The Bible clearly prohibits it. However even if feminists want to misinterpret a verse or two in order to claim rights to ordination, there is an incredible burden of proof needed to make such a dramatic change from the historical church's policy. Clearly those wanting women ordained have not met that burden with any serious Scriptural evidence.

sw