Women in the Church today

[Floatingaxe]

Be very careful when you say something that God has ordained is wrong. There is no such "order" to speak of.

[Floatingaxe]

The word used for servant in the scriptural passage of Romans 16:1 is "diakonos" in Greek. This word is used everywhere in the NT to designate the office of "minister".

No it's not. It's aways used as a servant. In fact, it would make no sense to be used as a term for authority considering it's the same word for "servant/slave" in the Greek. It is translated as "minister" but this is under the King James idea of a minister being someone who merely follows out the command of another. The word was originally used in English to describe someone who followed orders. It then took on the idea of authority when pastors and priests began to call themselves "ministers" (servants) out of piety...in other words, "I am not your leader, I am your servant." They did a diservice in keeping this title and the authority, because we now think of a minister as someone who has authority. Yet, when this was translated, a "minister" was someone who was a servant.

There was no bias in transcription at all. Likewise, those with authority are also given other titles, not just that of servant. This is to indicate that though they serve, they serve with authority and have authority on certain matters. Phoebe, who was a servant (deacon), did not have authority (or the text would have indicated as such).

You should stop relying on websites that promote this stuff for you, you just might run into someone who speaks Greek.

No way! I do not read websites. I read well-versed authors, men of God and spirit-filled. I believe what I wrote about the translation of the word, "diakonos", and I stand on it. Paul referred to Phoebe as a minister or pastor, and that is precisely what he meant. Phoebe is only one of many women who served as pastors on NT times. I used her as a prime example of how even the early translators had a bias and infused it into their work.

[firehill]

No way! I do not read websites. I read well-versed authors, men of God and spirit-filled. I believe what I wrote about the translation of the word, "diakonos", and I stand on it. Paul referred to Phoebe as a minister or pastor, and that is precisely what he meant. Phoebe is only one of many women who served as pastors on NT times. I used her as a prime example of how even the early translators had a bias and infused it into their work.

Since there is so much debate about meanings of Greek words perhaps the issue of christian overarching principles should be taken up. Either we humans are hierarchied like the angels who were not made in God's image or since we are made in His image and the Eternal Trinity is not hierarchied then neither is male/female relations in Christ and especialy since God surpasses gender.

Which is biblical? Christlikeness or wifey christlikeness/male authority, christlike submission, or female submission/male leadership, teaching of christian principles, which is wherein authority lies rather than in human gender, to others or female teaching of christian principles to other females? It appears that while gender ideology divides, christlikeness unifies.

[redeemed098]

Hmmmn....

Edited July 17, 2006 by redeemed098

[redeemed098]

Eve didnt fall first at all...The scriptures clearly indicate that "Eve gave some to her husband who was WITH her", but please note that the fall wasnt complete until ADAM had eaten....Eve had already eaten FIRST but had NOT fallen...WHY..???? The commandment was given to ADAM, it was upto HIM to stand his ground on what God had spoken to him...There is no doubt that Eve KNEW for she entered into coversation with the serpent about the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil....The command however was expressly given to Adam. It was HIS responsibility to choose to do what is right for BOTH of them.

Please also dont forget that though God formed Adam out of the dust of the earth and Eve from Adams rib, Eve was not actually subject to her husbands rule until AFTER the fall. It was part of the consequence of HER disobedience that she would now be subject to the rule of her husband. Therefore complete and total fulfillment in relationship can only truly be had when the husband and wife a living according to their created purpose. A relationship where the husband is in submission to the wife will never know the true meaning of a fulfilling and loving relationship, because the wife is trying to live outside of her created purpose.

To follow the scriptures and live according to the ways of God, is to live in complete fulfillment.

"Husbands Love your wives, as Jesus Loves his church." Does Jesus beat up on HIS bride.." Then nor should we. Does Jesus abuse or call his bride names..? No !!!, then nor should WE..."Husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself...Because the two are ONE.

"Wives submit to your husbands as to the Lord."

"Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in EVERYTHING...."

A home where the husband is not able to perform his role of leadership will never know the true blessing of God, and will never know the fullness of the relationship they COULD be living in..

When it comes to women preaching and teaching, I can see arguments for both sides...Deborah was a prophetess in the Old testament and Paul spoke very highly of Priscilla and Acquilla who TAUGHT...He clearly also wrote that a woman must not teach...and must be in silence. I must admit that I have seen myself very good reason for this as I have seen some women who are very disruptive when someone is trying to teach. I've often thought myself that she needs to keep quiet and ask her husband when they get home...Too emotional sometimes...It can be a distraction..

I think it all comes down to motive...What is the motive behind our thoughts and desires.....

I only have one...I'm not interested in a male vs female debate....I want to do what is biblically correct...I believe if that is what a woman desires also, then God will lead us in the right direction...

Radical feminism is movement that is gaining momentum simply because it is written in the scriptures that women will try to usurp the authority of a man.

The only real problem with it is that what it promises... it cannot deliver, as is often the case with satan. All that waits at the end of that road is emptiness and unfulfillment, because this is not your created purpose.... One only needs to look at what happened to Jezebel....

God has made it impossible for us to find fulfillment outside of his created purpose so that we will seek him. He is merciful and faithful to his Word and wills that none shall perish.

Regards,

Ben.

Edited July 17, 2006 by redeemed098

[Guest JESSEC1224]

Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading [a] Israel at that time. 5 She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites came to her to have their disputes decided. 6 She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, "The LORD, the God of Israel, commands you: 'Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead the way to Mount Tabor. 7 I will lure Sisera, the commander of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.' "

WASN'T DEBORAH A JUDGE. SHE HELD A POSITION OF AUTHORITY. WAS IT NOT FROM GOD? IF GOD CALLED A WOMEN INTO LEADERSHIP POSITION THEN, COULD HE NOT DO IT NOW?

I AM STILL UNDECISIVE ON THIS MATTER. JUST WONDERING.

[Floatingaxe]

Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading [a] Israel at that time. 5 She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites came to her to have their disputes decided. 6 She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, "The LORD, the God of Israel, commands you: 'Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead the way to Mount Tabor. 7 I will lure Sisera, the commander of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.' "

WASN'T DEBORAH A JUDGE. SHE HELD A POSITION OF AUTHORITY. WAS IT NOT FROM GOD? IF GOD CALLED A WOMEN INTO LEADERSHIP POSITION THEN, COULD HE NOT DO IT NOW?

I AM STILL UNDECISIVE ON THIS MATTER. JUST WONDERING.

Wonder no more, my dear! Even Miriam was one of three leaders of the whole nation of Israel! God has not changed His mind about women. The Holy Spirit doesn't check his gifting at the door when he comes across a female! He gifts us just the same as He does a man. It's our availability to Him He is looking for! It is such a travesty that the misogynist bent of man continues throughout the ages and into the church. I love my brothers in Christ, be assured of that.

Blessings

[st. Worm]

Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading [a] Israel at that time. 5 She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites came to her to have their disputes decided. 6 She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, "The LORD, the God of Israel, commands you: 'Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead the way to Mount Tabor. 7 I will lure Sisera, the commander of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.' "

WASN'T DEBORAH A JUDGE. SHE HELD A POSITION OF AUTHORITY. WAS IT NOT FROM GOD? IF GOD CALLED A WOMEN INTO LEADERSHIP POSITION THEN, COULD HE NOT DO IT NOW?

I AM STILL UNDECISIVE ON THIS MATTER. JUST WONDERING.

Wonder no more, my dear! Even Miriam was one of three leaders of the whole nation of Israel! God has not changed His mind about women. The Holy Spirit doesn't check his gifting at the door when he comes across a female! He gifts us just the same as He does a man. It's our availability to Him He is looking for! It is such a travesty that the misogynist bent of man continues throughout the ages and into the church. I love my brothers in Christ, be assured of that.

Blessings

Deborah was a political leader which in NO WAY equates to being a Christian pastor. This is a terribly false and near desperate comparison by those determined to have their way in the women's ordination issue. The Bible does not teach against women as political leaders but is clear that church leaders with authority, including pastors and elders, are to be only men. Jesus chose no women apostles, the specific qualifications for elders say men only, and women are to be silent in church and not operate as pastors.

sw

[Floatingaxe]

If Paul meant that women were to be silent, then why do women sing, pray, prophesy? If Paul meant that, then he went against even his own edict in 1 Corinthians 11, telling women to prophesy and pray! Prophesying is teaching, correcting and encouraging! This is a public ministry and God uses our voices to do it!

Paul was speaking to the church there in Corinth, and what he was advising was not absolute--it was relative, just like where he said in Corinthians 11 that men should not have long hair...that is a relativism. The point he was making about women being quiet was that there was unruliness going on in church services, where women, following the law, were asking their husbands in public, during services what the teachers were saying. Women were not allowed to sit with their husbands and so had to loudly put forth their questions from a mezzanine area above! Such a cacophony of sound they had to put up with! Paul was asking for order, nothing more. Women were to be quiet and not be disruptive. This has been erroneously extrapolated into a "law" and become a major hurdle for the Holy Spirit to overcome to this day. He gets the job done, but not without the opposition of legalistic views like this we are discussing now.

[IslandRose]

If Paul meant that women were to be silent, then why do women sing, pray, prophesy? If Paul meant that, then he went against even his own edict in 1 Corinthians 11, telling women to prophesy and pray! Prophesying is teaching, correcting and encouraging! This is a public ministry and God uses our voices to do it!

Paul was speaking to the church there in Corinth, and what he was advising was not absolute--it was relative, just like where he said in Corinthians 11 that men should not have long hair...that is a relativism. The point he was making about women being quiet was that there was unruliness going on in church services, where women, following the law, were asking their husbands in public, during services what the teachers were saying. Women were not allowed to sit with their husbands and so had to loudly put forth their questions from a mezzanine area above! Such a cacophony of sound they had to put up with! Paul was asking for order, nothing more. Women were to be quiet and not be disruptive. This has been erroneously extrapolated into a "law" and become a major hurdle for the Holy Spirit to overcome to this day. He gets the job done, but not without the opposition of legalistic views like this we are discussing now.

I have heard this explanation over and over but I have never heard where it comes from. How do you know that that was the reason Paul made that statement? Is there a history written of this somewhere that I have missed?