Good information on 'Born Gay' Studies

[Floatingaxe]

It's only a temptation for those who have willingly crossed the line--either physically or mentally.

God wants us to choose Him--willingly.

No. It's not.

Was Jesus tempted because He willingly crossed the line?

We are to fight temptation. No where does it ever say temptation means you've willingly crossed the line.

"God wants us to choose Him--willingly."

- I don't think you can ever do it unwillingly.

Perverted sex is not a temptation for those who haven't willingly toyed with it mentally--giving some sort of permission for it in their minds. Jesus never did that. He did as we are instructed to do--take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ!

Homosexuals have crossed the line already--mentally and physically--that is the temptation they must conquer--breaking away from that bomdage--that most of us don't have to.

Stop playing with my words--God wants is to willingly follow Him through Jesus--it is a choice.

[hepatocyte]

Perverted sex is not a temptation for those who haven't willingly toyed with it mentally--giving some sort of permission for it in their minds. Jesus never did that. He did as we are instructed to do--take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ!

Homosexuals have crossed the line already--mentally and physically--that is the temptation they must conquer--breaking away from that bomdage--that most of us don't have to.

Stop playing with my words--God wants is to willingly follow Him through Jesus--it is a choice.

"Perverted sex is not a temptation for those who haven't willingly toyed with it mentally--giving some sort of permission for it in their minds."

- So no good Christian individual would ever be tempted with anything because s/he hasn't willingly toyed with it mentally? With anything? Ever? Please. I think you're confusing temptation with active lusting in the mind.

"Homosexuals have crossed the line already"

- Having same-sex attractions doesn't take willing effort to have them.

"Stop playing with my words--God wants is to willingly follow Him through Jesus--it is a choice."

- What does all this have to do with the topic of temptation? Did anyone say you should give in to temptation? Again, fully understand what temptation is and don't confuse it with lust.

[Floatingaxe]

- So no good Christian individual would ever be tempted with anything because s/he hasn't willingly toyed with it mentally? With anything? Ever? Please. I think you're confusing temptation with active lusting in the mind.

Christians suffer temptation. When we allow a random thought to take hold, then we begin to cross the line into sin. It goes from a random thought for which we have no guilt before God--to lust, a sin of the mind.

"Homosexuals have crossed the line already"

- Having same-sex attractions doesn't take willing effort to have them.

Yes it does. It is the failure to take the thought "captive to the obedience of Christ."

Stop playing with my words--God wants is to willingly follow Him through Jesus--it is a choice.

- What does all this have to do with the topic of temptation? Did anyone say you should give in to temptation? Again, fully understand what temptation is and don't confuse it with lust.

Both are things we deal with in life. One is a fact of life that we, as Christians have a way out of. The other is a sin we need to avoid.

[Ovedya]

Wow, this thread's still going.

Okay, let's take the simplest avenue to attempt some kind of progress in the argument, as opposed to conjecture by people with no biology or psychology education.

• If homosexuality in humans can be seen as more than gratuitous sex, it would undermine the Christian position that it is borne from lust.
  
• If homosexuality can be observed throughout the animal kingdom, it would undermine the Christian position that it is unnatural.
  
• If an evolutionary advantage can be found from homosexuality, it would undermine the Christian position that it does not reconcile with Darwinian evolution.
  

I would hold the first to be self-evident. I've known many gay couples who were as devoted (yes, monogamous) to each other as my own parents. These men and women have been together as long as I can remember - I fail to see how it is simply gratuitous sex. The fact that homosexual men may donate sperm to a surrogate mother, and then raise the child with their same-sex partner after birth, undermines the "just for sex" position - the man is displaying preference to his homosexual partner in the interest of raising a child.

For the second, reputable information can be accessed easily pertaining to the sexual preference of animals. All bonobos observed in the wild have been seen to be bisexual - when such behaviour includes petting and caressing, it is difficult to see how this is simply aggressive dominating behaviour. If this were the case, what we would see is essentially the alpha-male raping his subordinates. In reality, complex social structures exist around sex with other members of the group.

Male flamingo pairs are an example of evolutionary advantage for homosexuality. Two males can hold a larger territory than a male and female - naturally this improves the survival chances of the donated egg.

1) Your premise is wrong. The Christian position is not limited merely to lust. It would be an oversimplification to simply write homosexuality off to lust, although certainly there is that aspect to consider. One can love another person and also lust after them sexually. there are many kinds of love, as you know. Romantic and monogamy are not reasons to justify or validate homosexual behavior, however. That is, unless you also intend to validate pedophilia, Pedophiles claim to have romantic love for children and some of their victims also claim to have romantic love for them.

2) The animal world does not pertain to humans, as humans are not animals. There is obviously a fundamental difference between the naturalists and religionists in this regard, so the animal world cannot be offered as proof against the Christian position since the fundamentals of both are divergent. As a Christian I do not believe that humans are animals. And even if I did I simply acknowledge the fact that largely animals are not intelligent enough to control their instinctual traits. Humans can, and do.

3) And "evolutionary advantage" is only so when those traits are carried on through procreation. Since "gay flamingos" don't procreate there is no reason to believe that the "gay trait" has any advantage that can be carried on.

[hepatocyte]

- So no good Christian individual would ever be tempted with anything because s/he hasn't willingly toyed with it mentally? With anything? Ever? Please. I think you're confusing temptation with active lusting in the mind.

Christians suffer temptation. When we allow a random thought to take hold, then we begin to cross the line into sin. It goes from a random thought for which we have no guilt before God--to lust, a sin of the mind.

"Homosexuals have crossed the line already"

- Having same-sex attractions doesn't take willing effort to have them.

Yes it does. It is the failure to take the thought "captive to the obedience of Christ."

Stop playing with my words--God wants is to willingly follow Him through Jesus--it is a choice.

- What does all this have to do with the topic of temptation? Did anyone say you should give in to temptation? Again, fully understand what temptation is and don't confuse it with lust.

Both are things we deal with in life. One is a fact of life that we, as Christians have a way out of. The other is a sin we need to avoid.

"Yes it does. It is the failure to take the thought "captive to the obedience of Christ"

- Once again, you confuse attraction with active lust of the mind.

I'm going to stop arguing now. There's really nothing more I can say to convince some Christians that having the attraction is not voluntary. Attraction is not the same as lust.

The more I argue, the more angry I get. I realize everyone here has good intentions.

I'll just leave it at that.

[Floatingaxe]

Attraction is not the same as lust.

Attraction is the very beginning. Allowed to fester, it becomes lust, which is itself as sin. Then it graduates to a full blown act, than a flagrant perversion, wherein the psyche becomes bent. Only the Holy Spirit's power can change you.

[Floatingaxe]

I'll just barf right here.

[Ovedya]

I'll just barf right here.

Well at least that's an acknowledgment you have a sickness.

[Ovedya]

And even if I did I simply acknowledge the fact that largely animals are not intelligent enough to control their instinctual traits.

Since "gay flamingos" don't procreate there is no reason to believe that the "gay trait" has any advantage that can be carried on.

If it's instinct, why is it wrong?

Gay flamingos, like many other animal species, may mate with a female (exclusive homosexuality is rare throughout the animal kingdom) and then raise the child with their same-sex partner.

Animals are not humans. They are not intelligent. The act of same-sex partnership is contrary to procreation.

[Guest LadyC]

i'm going to say something here that i've pointed out a billion times already.

homosexual behaviour between animals is not about 'attraction' or even sex. it's about DOMINANCE. it's akin to human rape, not about human love or lust.