THE IMAGE OF GOD

[godrulz]

Could you please clarify in a PM your last paragraph? I don't understand the meaning of it. I will start with Scripture next post when I am at home and not work.

It occurs to me that our discussion actually does fit under the image of God theme since our experience of time and history has some parallel to God's experience (openness view). "Image" would have to do with how we are similar (and by contrast different) to God (e.g. personality, character).

Some theological concepts, logic issues, or scientific ideas are not explicit in Scripture (Bible does not elabarorate on every area of knowledge) and will require godly reasoning. We are both in the same boat. Our understanding of time, eternity, contingent future choices, some aspects of God's attributes, etc. cannot ultimately be decided by proof texts alone (EITHER view has this handicap).

[Ovedya]

God-Man:  I believe God is everywhere present, but feel it is an absurdity to say He is in all times at once. Time is an aspect of God's being and is simply duration or succession (it allows Him and us to think, reason, choose, experience, feel, change).

If God can be in all places at once, what limitation is there to His also being in all times at once?  Time is not an aspect of God

[godrulz]

God-Man: (Ernie, I'm still at work...thx 4 patience)

Sooner or later, we will agree to disagree. In the mean time, I hope we don't get brain damage thinking about these things. It takes time to understand the alternate view. We can't properly accept or reject it until we do. Truth and error are worth weighing carefully.

Last post quote 1A) I think you are confusing space and time. Time is not space. They are different. Theoretical physicists and philosophers wrestle with those concepts and still disagree on the nature of time, space, and their relationship (I'm reading J.R. Lucas' definitive book "A Treatise on Time and Space." This is way out of my league and illustrates the complexity of this topic). Einstein's General and Special Theory of Relativity, Isaac Newton's work, and modern quantum mechanics are of interest (they do not all agree; do we understand them and their ramifications? No). Scripture unfolds as a simple narrative history and should be accepted as a revelation of reality for God and man. Common sense and everyday living show the reasonableness of my view. Like it or not, we all live, pray, and evangelize as if the "Open Theism" view of reality is correct. It takes more convoluted mental effort to explain the classic "eternal now" concept.

1B) I think you are blurring the biblical and rational distinction between past, present, and future making these concepts identical when in fact they are different. The past is not the present or future; the future is not the past or present (for a personal God or a personal man). To say other wise is in the realm of science fiction movies and not reality ("Back to the Future"; "The Minority Report"). Is it so hard to accept that time and history are unidirectional (one way) from present (becoming past) to the future? (this is the consensus of experts and biblical history and narrative). One cannot argue cogently from Scripture, science, or reason to say time travel forward or backwards is possible.

2)This is circular reasoning (?). You assume God knows the future absolutely or He would not be God (that idea comes from Greek philosophy). The Open view says free will choices are possibilities and unknowable as a fact until they are actualized at some point in time (then they are knowable as certainities and not mere possibilities= reality). We both believe God is OMNISCIENT in that He knows all that is KNOWABLE. The question and difference is in what we think can possibly be known and in what way. One cannot know a nothing (not a limitation on the omniscient God)!

3) This is not limiting God. Some concepts are absurd (making a rock too heavy to lift), self-contradictory (God making Himself uncreated/cease to exist), illogical (2+2=5), or irrational (future contingent truly free choices being knowable). What is reality? The universe is rational and orderly because it is the product of a Great Designer. God can and does intervene supernaturally, but He does not do or know impossibilities and absurdities.

Here I believe you are confusing the objective reality and passing of time (duration, sequence) and the subjective, temporal measure of it (e.g. "sun standing still" in Joshua?). Scripture and reason nowhere support changing or undoing past events (the onus is on you to show this is explicit in Scripture...there is more than one way to view a text. Face value reading should prevail). It is a fixed memory now for God and man. The future is open and exciting in many ways (I hope to start on the Scriptures showing this, next post). Prayer does change things! We can change things, and God most certainly does. Fatalism belongs to pagan religions, not Christianity. God did not create time (time is not a thing), but He did create the heavens and earth (starting human time records) which allowed for a new way to MEASURE it. Time is not greater than Him or limiting to Him (that is NOT a necessary conclusion from the principles I have shared). Time is endless duration and sequence. The Bible pictures God as   experiencing time (no reason to think He is an 'eternal now' except philosophy and church tradition). What is another definition for time?? Properly understood, the OPEN view reveals God's glorious freedom and perfection. The traditional view, ironically, limits God to an absolutely changeless Being with no freedom and less personality and joy of new experience than man. Excuse my passion, but I honestly feel this is a more Scriptural, God-honoring view. No arrogance or offense intended.

[Guest shilou]

Godrulz

I have to go with God knows all beginning to the end. For prophecy to come true there are alot more things that need to fall into place then like a president decides to call for war. We are talking about God knowing ahead of time how most people in the nation will respond to that call. He knows the hearts of each individual before the events take place. He knows who will be on their knees and who will take up arms. I could go into this further but you seem intelligent enough to think about it. It would be impossible for God to tell us of future events if He didn't know the conditions of each mans hearts to begin with and the future choices each would make.

As far as saying that God knows ahead of time makes Him like a cosmic blob, and unable to experience new joy. Heres a little simple example to think about. I'm chasing my grand daughter, I know ahead of time I'm going to catch her. But when I do I experience a overpowering uplifting of joy because of the combination of us connecting and her joy at being caught. I know my daughter is getting married ahead of time, but when the vows are actually said I weep with joy. God is the alpha and the omega, He knows who will do what. His joy is experienced when we get it and pass it on. Knowing future events for Him does not take from or give to the feelings experienced at the moment of it happening. We can not understand all of this without understanding love and all it entails.

Sometimes I am put in front of someone who I think in my intellectual mind that no way is this person going to listen to any of this. Then I have to remember God knows, and I don't have to decide the outcome, I only have to pay attention to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. My understanding of God became much easier when I stopped thinking and started praying more for a heart like Christ's. Now I'm stopped in awe of a flower being reborn, or the birth of every living creature.

Love in Yeshua

Shilou

[Dad Ernie]

Good post Shilou. Gave me some food for thought.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[traveller]

Beautiful post Shilou!  :thumb:

[Ovedya]

Okay, aside from the deep philosophical discussion on the nature of time and the relation of time and space, and whether or not God is absolutely able to foresee all future events.  What possible problem do we, or should we, have with the idea that man is created in the literal image and likeness of God?  And assuming that we agree that the words image and likeness in Genesis 1 refer to moral and spiritual character, what argument is there that these words cannot likewise refer to physical image?

The more I spin my wheels on philosophical debates the more I lose the truth and reality that in in Christ Jesus.  :biggrin:

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings God-man,

What possible problem do we, or should we, have with the idea that man is created in the literal image and likeness of God?  And assuming that we agree that the words image and likeness in Genesis 1 refer to moral and spiritual character, what argument is there that these words cannot likewise refer to physical image?

As I had hoped to make myself clear, the meaning of the "image and likeness of God" as relates to Adam has to do with power and authority and have given numerous scriptures to support that interpretation.

Adam was NOT a New Creation in Christ. He was of the dust and thus lacked: life, knowledge, understanding, morality even love. These things he had to acquire AFTER creation. With the New Creation, we are given the Holy Spirit who develops these things in us. We are also led by Him unto Good works.

So round and round the wheel goes.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Ovedya]

As I had hoped to make myself clear, the meaning of the "image and likeness of God" as relates to Adam has to do with power and authority and have given numerous scriptures to support that interpretation.

I agree and I disagree.  Image and likeness are separate qualities listed in Genesis 1.  These are not included with power and authority accept that man was created with the intent to display God

[godrulz]

Shilou: I concur that God perfectly knows the hearts and minds of men presently. He knows their past and present perfectly. Based on predictable human nature, He knew Peter would deny Christ, Judas would become apostate, and Pharoah would not soften his heart. He probably knows Sudam Hussein's and Osama Bin Laden's rejection of Christ is likely to the end. I do not believe from eternity past that He even knew they would exist and become evil (nor does He practically need to know). If these men are truly free and not predestined to hell (Calvinism), we can and should pray for them hoping they will come to repentance and not perish (surely this is God's desire= II Peter). If there is even 0.00001 % chance they will do this, then even God does not know this as a certainty (though because of perfect knowledge of their past and present choices it is an extremely high probability) until they take their last breath and go into eternity.

The majority of prophecies are conditional warnings and God seems to wait to see man's response to determine whether to give mercy or judgement. Many are things that God intends to bring to pass unconditionally. Few are predictive and specific of far off future events, and those are ones that the sovereign God can orchestrate and bring to pass generally despite the minor choices of individuals.  I hope to get to some of these Scriptures for Ernie soon.