Free will?

[redeemed098]

Now stop making excuses and coming up with futile arguments to try to get out of this....You cant..You must decide...God may already KNOW what youre going to decide, but he didnt make the decision FOR you....If he did, then right now he must have created you to perish unsaved....This alone is of no value to you as a defense because you have at the same time acknowledged that you know you can make the choice TO be saved. So the original question will come back to you all the time....Knowing all of this, why is it that you would willingly choose Death...???? Is it pride..? Is it anger..? Is it self righteousness...??

I still don't follow you. If God KNEW the person I would be (non-believer of Christ, etc) BEFORE he created me, HE made the DECISION to let me remain an unbeliever, although he allegedly had the POWER and KNOWLEDGE to make sure I knew Christ. Now, since He DECIDED I would remain an unbeliever, then surely I was created to perish unsaved, so of course I wouldn't see any reason necessary for me to be saved.

Who willingly chooses death?? And what does the tree of life and death have to with two doors ??

The tree of life was in the garden of Eden as was the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil...The tree of Life and the Tree of Death.

It is simply a demonstration of your black and white doors...Only YOU neglect to tell us what is waiting behind those doors..God hasnt neglected that...He is quite clear. There is a way that leads to life and there is a way that leads to death.

Are you going to choose to eat from the tree that will give you LIFE or are you going to choose to eat from the tree that will lead to your DEATH....

God didnt just put two trees in the garden and say "now sort it out for yourselves." He made it quite clear what the consequences would be..

If you can believe that you have been created to perish unsaved, then you can also believe that you have been created to LIVE eternally. The big question is why wont you repent and be saved..? Why would you rather believe you have been created to perish UNsaved...??? Its simple...Pride. You dont want to admit youre a sinner in need of Gods forgiveness..You think youre too good to be damned. Thats exactly how the sinful nature operates...Rebellion. Rejection. "God's wrong, I'm right..."

Let me put it to you another way Lypse....I have been saved now for eight years.....nine years ago, I said the same thing as you just did. God must've created me to perish.

One year later, I was saved. I dont know whether you will be saved or not because Im not God. But I do know that you have HEARD about Jesus and you do KNOW the message of the Gospel of Christ. You could not have come onto these boards and been here this long without having heard the gospel of Christ at least 500 times.

You KNOW that Salvation is there for you. You have been told and it has been proclaimed to you over and over...And you are STILL here listening...!! Why have you not gone away yet Lypse...? Its because you are hungry for the Truth..all you need to do is open your mouth and God will fill it. Until youre ready to accept it, your lips will always be tightly sealed. Before one can eat, he must open his mouth. Before one can see he must open his eyes and before one can hear, he must open his ears.

Only Jesus can open your ears and eyes to the gospel Lypse....But it is YOU who needs to first open your mouth..

"Everyone who calls upon the name of the lord shall be saved."

Regards,

Ben.

[lypse]

The tree of life was in the garden of Eden as was the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil...The tree of Life and the Tree of Death.

It is simply a demonstration of your black and white doors...Only YOU neglect to tell us what is waiting behind those doors..God hasnt neglected that...He is quite clear. There is a way that leads to life and there is a way that leads to death.

There are no right or wrong decisions with choosing black or white door, so I haven't neglected anything. The doors mean nothing about life and death.

The tree of life was in the garden of Eden as was the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil...The tree of Life and the Tree of Death.

It is simply a demonstration of your black and white doors...Only YOU neglect to tell us what is waiting behind those doors..God hasnt neglected that...He is quite clear. There is a way that leads to life and there is a way that leads to death.

He wasn't clear enough. He told Adam if he ate from the tree, he would surely die. Remember, Adam has NO KNOWLEDGE of DEATH so telling him he would DIE isn't clear at all.

If you can believe that you have been created to perish unsaved, then you can also believe that you have been created to LIVE eternally. The big question is why wont you repent and be saved..? Why would you rather believe you have been created to perish UNsaved...??? Its simple...Pride. You dont want to admit youre a sinner in need of Gods forgiveness..You think youre too good to be damned. Thats exactly how the sinful nature operates...Rebellion. Rejection. "God's wrong, I'm right..."

I don't believe I was created to perish, because I don't believe I was created at all. So it has nothing to do with pride, nothing at all. I'm not a sinner (in the sense that you see it) but I am not a perfect person either. I don't think I'm 'too good to be damned', since, I don't believe in any form of salvation or damnation.

"God's wrong, I'm right..."

Well, seeing how your God doesn't exist, I wouldn't say He was wrong and I'm right.

You KNOW that Salvation is there for you. You have been told and it has been proclaimed to you over and over...And you are STILL here listening...!! Why have you not gone away yet Lypse...? Its because you are hungry for the Truth

Just because the salvation is there, is no reason for me to take it. Even IF I was hear still because I'm hungry for the truth, I still starving my friend and yet to be fed.

[eric]

Lypse, we can't have you starving now, can we. So I will try and elucidate for you.

Firstly Adam was made perfect in the image and likeness of God. He had God's nature ans character, but he didn't have His omnicience, omipitence or His omnipresence. But adam was given a brain so that he could make the right or wrong choices of he would have been robotic and robots have no sense of love.

Okay you were not created to perish to be either saved or unsaved. In fact you weren't created at all. Adam and eve are the only created beings. God does not create imperfections. You are the result of adam's mistake of not obeying God.

Now whether or not God knew in advance who of adam's generation, was going to accept or reject His son, is an ongoing debate between the Calvanists and the arminianists (sp), but even if He did know, He couldn't or would'nt have any reason to change the circumstances, but being a just and merciful God, man still had a brain to enable to make the right or wrong choice. So what if God did know that Joe dokes was going to be born on a certain date and that he was one of the ones who were going to be too hard nosed to accept His son and would perish. Adam had already started the chain of reproduction on the wrong side of God's will, so how was God going to stop it without wiping the slate and starting over. He didn't, He sent His Son with a plan to offer free salvation for anyone, even the hard nosed ones, who wished to be reconciled back the His Father, by the repenting of their sins and accepting Him as their Lord and saviour.

I get sick and tired of people who say I am what I am because that's how God created me.

God created Adam and eve and we are the results of that union, after adam's fall. If God had have created me, I would be perfect because God doesn't make mistakes. Man makes enough of his own, because like adam, man thinks he knows best.......Your choice brother, Your way or God's way. Make the choice with the brain you were born with.

hope this helps, even though some will disagree with me, but that's the way I see it.

[lypse]

Lypse, we can't have you starving now, can we. So I will try and elucidate for you.

Firstly Adam was made perfect in the image and likeness of God. He had God's nature ans character, but he didn't have His omnicience, omipitence or His omnipresence. But adam was given a brain so that he could make the right or wrong choices of he would have been robotic and robots have no sense of love.

Okay you were not created to perish to be either saved or unsaved. In fact you weren't created at all. Adam and eve are the only created beings. God does not create imperfections. You are the result of adam's mistake of not obeying God.

Now whether or not God knew in advance who of adam's generation, was going to accept or reject His son, is an ongoing debate between the Calvanists and the arminianists (sp), but even if He did know, He couldn't or would'nt have any reason to change the circumstances, but being a just and merciful God, man still had a brain to enable to make the right or wrong choice. So what if God did know that Joe dokes was going to be born on a certain date and that he was one of the ones who were going to be too hard nosed to accept His son and would perish. Adam had already started the chain of reproduction on the wrong side of God's will, so how was God going to stop it without wiping the slate and starting over. He didn't, He sent His Son with a plan to offer free salvation for anyone, even the hard nosed ones, who wished to be reconciled back the His Father, by the repenting of their sins and accepting Him as their Lord and saviour.

I get sick and tired of people who say I am what I am because that's how God created me.

God created Adam and eve and we are the results of that union, after adam's fall. If God had have created me, I would be perfect because God doesn't make mistakes. Man makes enough of his own, because like adam, man thinks he knows best.......Your choice brother, Your way or God's way. Make the choice with the brain you were born with.

hope this helps, even though some will disagree with me, but that's the way I see it.

You know what...I like how you think, though i may disagree now, you'll be happy to know you have at least got me thinking...I'll ponder it for the mean time and get back to you

[billie]

Hi Lypse!

[eric]

Thanks for getting back to me Lypse. What I gave you was a rough outline of my own thoughts and I stand to be corrected, but God told both adam and eve that they had blundered in Genisis chapter 3.and told them both that life is going to be a grind and a bind. They were spiritually dead from then on and and they would have to bust a gut trying to subdue the earth.

Now this is the tricky bit. Some people say, that because God is omnicient, He knew that adam would sin and cause Him to send His son, Jesus, to provide a way of being reconciled back to the Father. As God is spirit, He had to come Himself, manifest in the flesh, because He had no other way of getting the salvation message across to the offspring (us) of the fallen man.

Whether God knew adam would disobey Him or not is a big bone of contention among believers and I, for one, won't debate it, because it can't change the outcome.

Anyway if you want to chew the fat over it, you are welcome to PM me.

Have a nice day Lypse.

[redeemed098]

The tree of life was in the garden of Eden as was the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil...The tree of Life and the Tree of Death.

It is simply a demonstration of your black and white doors...Only YOU neglect to tell us what is waiting behind those doors..God hasnt neglected that...He is quite clear. There is a way that leads to life and there is a way that leads to death.

There are no right or wrong decisions with choosing black or white door, so I haven't neglected anything. The doors mean nothing about life and death.

The tree of life was in the garden of Eden as was the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil...The tree of Life and the Tree of Death.

It is simply a demonstration of your black and white doors...Only YOU neglect to tell us what is waiting behind those doors..God hasnt neglected that...He is quite clear. There is a way that leads to life and there is a way that leads to death.

He wasn't clear enough. He told Adam if he ate from the tree, he would surely die. Remember, Adam has NO KNOWLEDGE of DEATH so telling him he would DIE isn't clear at all.

If you can believe that you have been created to perish unsaved, then you can also believe that you have been created to LIVE eternally. The big question is why wont you repent and be saved..? Why would you rather believe you have been created to perish UNsaved...??? Its simple...Pride. You dont want to admit youre a sinner in need of Gods forgiveness..You think youre too good to be damned. Thats exactly how the sinful nature operates...Rebellion. Rejection. "God's wrong, I'm right..."

I don't believe I was created to perish, because I don't believe I was created at all. So it has nothing to do with pride, nothing at all. I'm not a sinner (in the sense that you see it) but I am not a perfect person either. I don't think I'm 'too good to be damned', since, I don't believe in any form of salvation or damnation.

"God's wrong, I'm right..."

Well, seeing how your God doesn't exist, I wouldn't say He was wrong and I'm right.

You KNOW that Salvation is there for you. You have been told and it has been proclaimed to you over and over...And you are STILL here listening...!! Why have you not gone away yet Lypse...? Its because you are hungry for the Truth

Just because the salvation is there, is no reason for me to take it. Even IF I was hear still because I'm hungry for the truth, I still starving my friend and yet to be fed.

Yep...! Because you wont open your mouth.....Your eyes are closed and so too are your ears...If you cannot HEAR truth Lypse, then nobody can TELL it to you.

That was my whole point...You have had the truth spoken to you over and over but because you are not open to hear, you are unable..That is why you always ask the same questions over and over..It matters not how many times we tell you..You cant HEAR..Jesus was very specific..."Though they have eyes, they cannot see, and though they have ears they cannot hear...Otherwise they see and hear and turn and repent and be saved. You are only here Lypse to try to endow people with YOUR wisdom...You disguise your attempt as a search for understanding....We know better..!! We not silly..Being Christian, contrary to popular belief, does not mean one is dumb and uneducated....It simply means we are wise and educated and growing in the knowledge of God. To the world, that is perceived as "foolishness." You are not here for any other reason than to demonstrate your worldly wisdom....I know this for a fact even though you yourself dont even know it.....You see you are an enemy of God through wicked works.. I dont care whether you agree or not or believe or not...According to God, that is exactly what and who you are right now at this very moment...An enemy of God...

What I want you know though is that in your attempts to demonstrate your worldly wisdom, God has brought you in here himself as part of his own plan to save you....Your intent and Gods are completely different....Even though you are an enemy of God, he still wants to see you saved...Thats is the most amazing thing about God....Even YOUR OWN agenda cannot frustrate HIS..If you came in here to create great division, God would use that too..To strengthen his children and make them even stronger in the faith through greater dependence on HIM...

I would be concerned Lypse if anything I have said to you makes any sense...As an enemy of God, though he wants to see you saved, you are dead to God.

Youre a rotting corpse...Dead..!! Filled with your own wisdom and your own agenda...Thats why you need to be born again.

"The wicked through the pride of his countenance does not seek God. Indeed there is no room in all his thoughts FOR God."

Youre too filled with YOU Lypse..You might not think so, but you are. When youre ready for Less of YOU, there will be room for God Lypse...

I hope you make it..

"Unless a man repents, he shall perish." Cant change Truth Lypse...No matter how much you would like to. Jesus has already come. Jesus has already been crucified, Jesus has already risen and he is coming again...To Judge the world according to Righteousness....Not YOUR righteousness Lypse..Gods.

You cannot alter what Jesus has already done..and is about to DO.

Regards,

Ben.

[Guest schneider]

I believe God is powerful enough to create me with the ability to choose a door with freedom. He knew wich one I would choose, but He takes pleasure when we choose the correct door without being forced. I could be wrong on this, but that is how I see God in the Bible.

God gave us logic (otherwise how could we be sure any thought we have is correct). If God created beings to choose the wrong door, and they had no choice in it, then it would be illogical for Him to be angry with them. All throughout the bible God is angry at sinners and with people who did not choose Him.

That is the stumbling block I have right now with a predestination theology that says God created us with no choice in the matter. If the bible teaches otherwise, I would like to see it because I don't want to create my own view of God.

[EricH]

I believe God is powerful enough to create me with the ability to choose a door with freedom. He knew wich one I would choose, but He takes pleasure when we choose the correct door without being forced. I could be wrong on this, but that is how I see God in the Bible.

God gave us logic (otherwise how could we be sure any thought we have is correct). If God created beings to choose the wrong door, and they had no choice in it, then it would be illogical for Him to be angry with them. All throughout the bible God is angry at sinners and with people who did not choose Him.

That is the stumbling block I have right now with a predestination theology that says God created us with no choice in the matter. If the bible teaches otherwise, I would like to see it because I don't want to create my own view of God.

The bible in no place directly teaches that people have complete free will. it only teaches that people have the ability to act according to their natures.

[eric]

Exactly BotherEric, the brain that God created in Adam, was perfect as was His and it enabled Adam to make choices to know which tree to eat or not to eat from. Adam made the wrong choice and went against God's will. IMHO. there is no term *free will* in the bible.