Free will?

[Floatingaxe]

I understand the different ways we see this question, CJ smile.gif. One question, though: I've always taken Eden as an example that God did want a perfect world, but failed. If God knew that Adam and Eve would sin regardless of his warning, why warn them at all, except out of hope to prevent a sinful future? Why start with a perfect world, when you know you'll have to seal up the Garden and send the flood? Why must God search the Garden when Adam and Eve hide from him - not just because, as an omnipotent deity, he should surely know where they are, but because if he'd already forseen this future, why would it surprise him? Wouldn't he already know where they were going to be?

Actually, tell a lie, two questions: God gave sin to mankind as a punishment. Even after Adam and Eve ate the apple, it was God who punished them with disease, old age, decay, pain and death. Of itself, the apple only made them aware that they were naked, and caused their 'spiritual' deaths. So was it more important to God that mankind live in a Sinful world and choose him, rather than live in Eden while knowing the difference between good and evil? Which was the more perfect world?

Again (sorry!) three questions: If there was no evil in the world of Eden - if there was only good - then how could the apple make Adam and Eve able to distinguish good from evil, if there was no evil for them to distinguish good from? Lucifer (the serpent) was there, yes, but he was made apart from the world; Eden itself was free from evil. So what abilities did Adam and Eve gain, if there was no evil for them to percieve?

Finally (sorry!) number four: Adam and Eve were naked. If this was evil - as suggsted by the fact that they clothed themselves once they'd eaten - does this mean that there was evil in the Garden in the form of their nakedness since their creation, but that until they ate the apple, they weren't aware of it?

I believe the story of the garden of eden to be a myth that describes a persons temptation, a seduction of innocence if you will. It explains that innocence is golden and flawless. Little children are innocent. When they get older however they learn the wisdom of the world [foolish worldly knowledge] and become tempted by their environment. Genisis describes growth. Often Jesus is described as a second Adam. An Adam that didn`t take the apple, but rather shoved it back into the serpents face, and this is what redeems mankind. The secret is that mankind was already redeemed, as Jesus was created before man.

Another interesting concept. Is that in apocryphal texts we find that the story is deeper than we could ever imagine. God created other gods. This is what is meant by "You shall have no other gods before me" Do you think he would have described the devil, or the angels as a god? Surly this would be a lie. He created a female goddess that held wisdom. God was the word, the word and wisdom created jesus the light. So we have the word, the wisdom and the light. anyways I got off of the subject. Basically I don`t believe in the story of adam and eve as any more than a fable. I still believe it is a tale with a powerful message. I hope I didn`t rais more questions than I answered. God bless.

God did not create other gods..the point is...WE MAKE GODS.

[cjrose]

Free will? Of course we have free will. If we didn't we would all be robots because God would make the decisions for us.

God wants us, of our own volition, to turn to Him .. He doesn't force us to do anything!

There is nothing in the Bible that indicates man, subsequent to the Fall, has a free will. Instead the Bible says we are dead in our sins, that our will is bound by sin and that our hearts are deceitful. Only the grace of God can free us from that bondage. To say salvation is based upon man's free will choice is to remove all glory from God and give it to man.

sw

Our eternal salvation is based on our choice to accept Jesus as our Savior, who suffered, died on the cross and was resurected. I have to disagree that free will hardly takes away God's glory but enlightens it with each new child that comes to Him through choice. We are still sinners, just because we are believers doesn't make us sinless. Yes, God can and does free us from bondage but He also says to repent and ask forgivness and He will cleanse us. What is the point in choosing God and continue to walk with both feet in the world? He says He will forgive. Go and sin no more but He is generous and forgives when we confess to Him. There is a lot of things that may not be in the Bible but they are in my heart and I know His word to be truth because the Holy Spirit convicts me to repent and in exchange, I am filled with peace, joy and love internally.

The Bible is our guide and our source of wisdom. We all know we have free will. At least the belivers that I know do. It may not be logical or backed up by scripture, and it not then how do we just "know" we have free will? It is from our loving God. Do we deserve His mercy and grace? No. But He gives it abundantly because we have choosen to be His disciple.

Peace.

[cjrose]

I understand the different ways we see this question, CJ smile.gif. One question, though: I've always taken Eden as an example that God did want a perfect world, but failed. If God knew that Adam and Eve would sin regardless of his warning, why warn them at all, except out of hope to prevent a sinful future? Why start with a perfect world, when you know you'll have to seal up the Garden and send the flood? Why must God search the Garden when Adam and Eve hide from him - not just because, as an omnipotent deity, he should surely know where they are, but because if he'd already forseen this future, why would it surprise him? Wouldn't he already know where they were going to be?

Actually, tell a lie, two questions: God gave sin to mankind as a punishment. Even after Adam and Eve ate the apple, it was God who punished them with disease, old age, decay, pain and death. Of itself, the apple only made them aware that they were naked, and caused their 'spiritual' deaths. So was it more important to God that mankind live in a Sinful world and choose him, rather than live in Eden while knowing the difference between good and evil? Which was the more perfect world?

Again (sorry!) three questions: If there was no evil in the world of Eden - if there was only good - then how could the apple make Adam and Eve able to distinguish good from evil, if there was no evil for them to distinguish good from? Lucifer (the serpent) was there, yes, but he was made apart from the world; Eden itself was free from evil. So what abilities did Adam and Eve gain, if there was no evil for them to percieve?

Finally (sorry!) number four: Adam and Eve were naked. If this was evil - as suggsted by the fact that they clothed themselves once they'd eaten - does this mean that there was evil in the Garden in the form of their nakedness since their creation, but that until they ate the apple, they weren't aware of it?

I believe the story of the garden of eden to be a myth that describes a persons temptation, a seduction of innocence if you will. It explains that innocence is golden and flawless. Little children are innocent. When they get older however they learn the wisdom of the world [foolish worldly knowledge] and become tempted by their environment. Genisis describes growth. Often Jesus is described as a second Adam. An Adam that didn`t take the apple, but rather shoved it back into the serpents face, and this is what redeems mankind. The secret is that mankind was already redeemed, as Jesus was created before man.

Another interesting concept. Is that in apocryphal texts we find that the story is deeper than we could ever imagine. God created other gods. This is what is meant by "You shall have no other gods before me" Do you think he would have described the devil, or the angels as a god? Surly this would be a lie. He created a female goddess that held wisdom. God was the word, the word and wisdom created jesus the light. So we have the word, the wisdom and the light. anyways I got off of the subject. Basically I don`t believe in the story of adam and eve as any more than a fable. I still believe it is a tale with a powerful message. I hope I didn`t rais more questions than I answered. God bless.

God did not create other gods..the point is...WE MAKE GODS.

Sounds as if you believe more in mythology than the truth that God provides. I am not going to argue with you about adam and eve. If God says He created man in His image then that is what He did. He made women from the rib of adam so he would not be alone, etc... If you believe in the powerful message, then why don't you accept that God created adam and eve.

My interpretation of "you shall never have no other gods before me" is because we made idols to worship such as the golden calf which brought with it sinful behavior. Other gods=idols. Worldly Icons that some man made religions use as a means of some kind of satisfaction that if they pray before an idol their prayer is heard over all others or put before others or that He only listens if you kneel before a crucifix. Gods and Godess's is interesting fantasy but that is where the myth lies, not in the truth of Gods Word.

I post this out of love and am just offering my belief. So please do not take offense. There are many mysteries yet to be revealed and one day we will eventually know what lies in those mysteries.

Peace

[lypse]

I've stated before that when I was young I really, really, really wanted Jesus in my life, because I did not want to go to hell. I have never felt his spirit or anything while at church or praying. I don't think it's enough to tell me that I should just believe because his presence is obvious, because it's not.

What do you propose I do to get to know and love Jesus??

[Observer of dreams]

Maybe I`m wrong, maybe I`m right. Doesn`t matter. For all we know the God of the old testament could be the false God of revelation, I mean he did make fire rain down from the sky and is capable of sin (jealousy). I`m not going to try and figure it out, but I am certainly not going to act like I know anything about who God is.

Lypse to get back on subject I would say to you get to know and love Jesus by getting to know and love others regardless of their fath, or faithlessness. Judge others only to the extant that you will have them judge you, and be willing to give up everything about yourself for the name of God. This last thing doesn`t mean go sell everything you own and become homeless as it says in the bible "Stay exactly how you were when you found me." I am willing to die to save my fiances life, but that doesn`t mean I have to kill myself.....understand? When you have this love for everything around you, you will come into the understanding of the love that Jesus ALREADY has for you.

This describes God creating another God, it also describes God as "more than a God"

Edited September 4, 2006 by Matthitjah

[billie]

I've stated before that when I was young I really, really, really wanted Jesus in my life, because I did not want to go to hell. I have never felt his spirit or anything while at church or praying. I don't think it's enough to tell me that I should just believe because his presence is obvious, because it's not.

What do you propose I do to get to know and love Jesus??

Ask him to show you if he's real or not. You've got nothing to lose. If nothing's there, nothing will happen.

[cjrose]

Maybe I`m wrong, maybe I`m right. Doesn`t matter. For all we know the God of the old testament could be the false God of revelation, I mean he did make fire rain down from the sky and is capable of sin (jealousy). I`m not going to try and figure it out, but I am certainly not going to act like I know anything about who God is.

Lypse to get back on subject I would say to you get to know and love Jesus by getting to know and love others regardless of their fath, or faithlessness. Judge others only to the extant that you will have them judge you, and be willing to give up everything about yourself for the name of God. This last thing doesn`t mean go sell everything you own and become homeless as it says in the bible "Stay exactly how you were when you found me." I am willing to die to save my fiances life, but that doesn`t mean I have to kill myself.....understand? When you have this love for everything around you, you will come into the understanding of the love that Jesus ALREADY has for you.

This describes God creating another God, it also describes God as "more than a God"

I would love to share this with you because Idid some research and Adam and Eve are most definately in the Word of God. But both of your posts are confusing to me. No offense meant. It just sometimes takes time for me to "get it" but what do you mean by aeons and ineffable things. You are speak in the third person lypse. The Father is God, Jesus was born of virgin birth in to this world sinless because He is the Son of God, and this may be more confusing but He is also the Holy Spirit. Three in One Ominpotent God. The Trinity.

I'm confused but if I may ask just so we are all on the same narrow path here. Are you both saved? Have you accepted Jesus as Gods Son that He sacraficed on the cross, He suffered and though He was sinless, He cried out Why have you forsaken me? Do you also believe that he rose from the dead three days later after telling His disciples that the temple would be destroyed but rebuilt in three days? The temple was his body and as He was ressurrected He became a glorified spiritual light although He still had the same body, it was perfect. Do you believe that His death on the cross that we are saved if we choose to follow Him? Eternal salvation. He will separate the sheep from the goats. Just wondering where you both are and please please do not interpret this as any form of judgement. Just want to know what I'm working with if you would be so kind as to explain?

This may be long but you will want to read it since Observer you don't believe. And I'll get to the topic of free choice soon.

Actually I am going to post it in a separate thread because there is so much to back up Gods Word that will give you another option to continue to believe Adam and Eve are a myth or that God created man in His image.

Peace to you both.

Cj

[st. Worm]

Only people who reject the Gospel message and what Jesus has done for them will be held accountable. People who never get the oppurtunity to accept or reject can't be held accountable for something they don't know.

I'm sorry dear soul, but that is patently false. We all stand condemned because of our sin and the sin imputed to us through Adam. We do not get a free pass just because we do not hear about Jesus. If what you say is true we are doing a great disservice spreading the gospel. If what you say is true then it would be better if we told no one about Jesus. Then they would get a free pass to Heaven in their ignorance.

sw

[st. Worm]

Free will? Of course we have free will. If we didn't we would all be robots because God would make the decisions for us.

God wants us, of our own volition, to turn to Him .. He doesn't force us to do anything!

There is nothing in the Bible that indicates man, subsequent to the Fall, has a free will. Instead the Bible says we are dead in our sins, that our will is bound by sin and that our hearts are deceitful. Only the grace of God can free us from that bondage. To say salvation is based upon man's free will choice is to remove all glory from God and give it to man.

sw

Our eternal salvation is based on our choice to accept Jesus as our Savior, who suffered, died on the cross and was resurected. I have to disagree that free will hardly takes away God's glory but enlightens it with each new child that comes to Him through choice. We are still sinners, just because we are believers doesn't make us sinless. Yes, God can and does free us from bondage but He also says to repent and ask forgivness and He will cleanse us. What is the point in choosing God and continue to walk with both feet in the world? He says He will forgive. Go and sin no more but He is generous and forgives when we confess to Him. There is a lot of things that may not be in the Bible but they are in my heart and I know His word to be truth because the Holy Spirit convicts me to repent and in exchange, I am filled with peace, joy and love internally.

The Bible is our guide and our source of wisdom. We all know we have free will. At least the belivers that I know do. It may not be logical or backed up by scripture, and it not then how do we just "know" we have free will? It is from our loving God. Do we deserve His mercy and grace? No. But He gives it abundantly because we have choosen to be His disciple.

Peace.

You are wrong. Our eternal salvation is based on Christ's life, death and resurrection. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible you can point to that says man's salvation is based on the abilities of his "free will". Salvation by decision is not salvation by grace alone and by faith alone. I believe Jesus suffered the penalty for my sins. That confession is not based on a free will decision. It is the result of the gift of faith that the Holy Spirit has worked in me. Decision theology and free will is a gospel of good works. It denies all that the Bible says about us as sinners.

sw

[cjrose]

Maybe I`m wrong, maybe I`m right. Doesn`t matter. For all we know the God of the old testament could be the false God of revelation, I mean he did make fire rain down from the sky and is capable of sin (jealousy). I`m not going to try and figure it out, but I am certainly not going to act like I know anything about who God is.

Lypse to get back on subject I would say to you get to know and love Jesus by getting to know and love others regardless of their fath, or faithlessness. Judge others only to the extant that you will have them judge you, and be willing to give up everything about yourself for the name of God. This last thing doesn`t mean go sell everything you own and become homeless as it says in the bible "Stay exactly how you were when you found me." I am willing to die to save my fiances life, but that doesn`t mean I have to kill myself.....understand? When you have this love for everything around you, you will come into the understanding of the love that Jesus ALREADY has for you.

"How am I to speak with you about him? His aeon is indestructible, at rest and existing in silence, reposing (and) being prior to everything. For he is the head of all the aeons, and it is he who gives them strength in his goodness. For we know not the ineffable things, and we do not understand what is immeasurable, except for him who came forth from him, namely (from) the Father. For it is he who told it to us alone. For it is he who looks at himself in his light which surrounds him, namely the spring of the water of life. And it is he who gives to all the aeons and in every way, (and) who gazes upon his image which he sees in the spring of the Spirit. It is he who puts his desire in his water-light which is in the spring of the pure light-water which surrounds him.

This describes God creating another God, it also describes God as "more than a God"

I would love to share this with you because Idid some research and Adam and Eve are most definately in the Word of God. But both of your posts are confusing to me. No offense meant. It just sometimes takes time for me to "get it" but what do you mean by aeons and ineffable things. You are speak in the third person lypse. The Father is God, Jesus was born of virgin birth in to this world sinless because He is the Son of God, and this may be more confusing but He is also the Holy Spirit. Three in One Ominpotent God. The Trinity.

I'm confused but if I may ask just so we are all on the same narrow path here. Are you both saved? Have you accepted Jesus as Gods Son that He sacraficed on the cross, He suffered and though He was sinless, He cried out Why have you forsaken me? Do you also believe that he rose from the dead three days later after telling His disciples that the temple would be destroyed but rebuilt in three days? The temple was his body and as He was ressurrected He became a glorified spiritual light although He still had the same body, it was perfect. Do you believe that His death on the cross that we are saved if we choose to follow Him? Eternal salvation. He will separate the sheep from the goats. Just wondering where you both are and please please do not interpret this as any form of judgement. Just want to know what I'm working with if you would be so kind as to explain?

This may be long but you will want to read it since Observer you don't believe. And I'll get to the topic of free choice soon.

Actually I am going to post it in a separate thread because there is so much to back up Gods Word that will give you another option to continue to believe Adam and Eve are a myth or that God created man in His image.

Peace to you both.

Cj

Wait a sec.. you believe God is now a false God? That's a challenge. I do hope you will answer my question on if you believe you are saved or not. This is serious! Your eternal salvation is in jeapardy. Making a statement that that was so long ago that maybe that God is a false God. There is only one God and He is the Alpha and the Omega. Beginning and End. I do pray that you will study the word and ask for guidence in understanding the message. If you are truly saved, the Holy Spirit will speak to you.

Peace

Cj

Oh I made a new thread in apologetics regarding Adam and Eve with scripture to back it up. Just for you Observer Although I do hope it will shed light for anyone else as well. Except the non belivers of course but never know, God works in mysterious ways... Ooooooooooooooooo