Free will?

[John Lennon]

Care to refute this.....

The Two Doors

Imagine you are in a room with two doors, BLACK and WHITE, and you decide to leave the room. (1) Since God is all-knowing, he must know which door you will choose to exit the room BEFORE you make the decision. If he did not know this, then he would not be all-knowing, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. Suppose you end up choosing the BLACK door. (2) God knew you would choose the BLACK door before you chose it. (3) He even knew it before he CREATED you. (4) But if he knew you would choose BLACK before he created you, then God had the POWER to create you with a DIFFERENT nature so that you would have instead chosen the WHITE door. If God did not have this power, then God could not be all-powerful, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. (5) Since God had the power to create you to choose either the BLACK or the WHITE door, then God must have DECIDED to create you so that you would choose the BLACK door. If he did not make this decision, then he is not a purposeful god, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. (6) Since God CREATED you with the PURPOSE to choose the BLACK door, then you could not have chosen the WHITE door at all. If you could choose differently, then you would have the power to thwart God's purpose, which logically CONTRADICTS him being all-powerfull, all-knowing, and purposeful. (7) Therefore, there is only a SINGLE outcome: You will go through the BLACK door. (8 ) Since there is only a single outcome, then there could not have been any other outcome, and so there could not have been any FREE WILL CHOICE of more than one alternative. (9) Therefore, you did not have the free will to choose the WHITE door over the BLACK door, so this 'decision' was not actually one of free will, because God created you with the purpose to choose the BLACK door. (10) However, God also knew, before you were created, the outcome of EVERY decision you will ever make, and -- following this same argument -- his power and purposefulness mean that every decision has been fixed by God before you were created, and you do not have the power to thwart God's purpose, so (11) NONE of your 'decisions' are of the FREE WILL variety. If they were, then this would logically CONTRADICT the attributes of God. (12) But if none of your actions are based on free will, then the Christian concept of FREE WILL IS LOGICALLY CONTRADICTORY with the attributes of God.

???

[John Lennon]

Care to refute this.....

The Two Doors

Imagine you are in a room with two doors, BLACK and WHITE, and you decide to leave the room. (1) Since God is all-knowing, he must know which door you will choose to exit the room BEFORE you make the decision. If he did not know this, then he would not be all-knowing, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. Suppose you end up choosing the BLACK door. (2) God knew you would choose the BLACK door before you chose it. (3) He even knew it before he CREATED you. (4) But if he knew you would choose BLACK before he created you, then God had the POWER to create you with a DIFFERENT nature so that you would have instead chosen the WHITE door. If God did not have this power, then God could not be all-powerful, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. (5) Since God had the power to create you to choose either the BLACK or the WHITE door, then God must have DECIDED to create you so that you would choose the BLACK door. If he did not make this decision, then he is not a purposeful god, which is a logical CONTRADICTION. (6) Since God CREATED you with the PURPOSE to choose the BLACK door, then you could not have chosen the WHITE door at all. If you could choose differently, then you would have the power to thwart God's purpose, which logically CONTRADICTS him being all-powerfull, all-knowing, and purposeful. (7) Therefore, there is only a SINGLE outcome: You will go through the BLACK door. (8 ) Since there is only a single outcome, then there could not have been any other outcome, and so there could not have been any FREE WILL CHOICE of more than one alternative. (9) Therefore, you did not have the free will to choose the WHITE door over the BLACK door, so this 'decision' was not actually one of free will, because God created you with the purpose to choose the BLACK door. (10) However, God also knew, before you were created, the outcome of EVERY decision you will ever make, and -- following this same argument -- his power and purposefulness mean that every decision has been fixed by God before you were created, and you do not have the power to thwart God's purpose, so (11) NONE of your 'decisions' are of the FREE WILL variety. If they were, then this would logically CONTRADICT the attributes of God. (12) But if none of your actions are based on free will, then the Christian concept of FREE WILL IS LOGICALLY CONTRADICTORY with the attributes of God.

???

[John Lennon]

Perfect analogy of the countless contradictions in the bible! Well put Lypse...could I ask if you've ever read 'The Power of Myth' by Joseph Campbell?

[John Lennon]

Maybe I`m wrong, maybe I`m right. Doesn`t matter. For all we know the God of the old testament could be the false God of revelation, I mean he did make fire rain down from the sky and is capable of sin (jealousy). I`m not going to try and figure it out, but I am certainly not going to act like I know anything about who God is.

Lypse to get back on subject I would say to you get to know and love Jesus by getting to know and love others regardless of their fath, or faithlessness. Judge others only to the extant that you will have them judge you, and be willing to give up everything about yourself for the name of God. This last thing doesn`t mean go sell everything you own and become homeless as it says in the bible "Stay exactly how you were when you found me." I am willing to die to save my fiances life, but that doesn`t mean I have to kill myself.....understand? When you have this love for everything around you, you will come into the understanding of the love that Jesus ALREADY has for you.

"How am I to speak with you about him? His aeon is indestructible, at rest and existing in silence, reposing (and) being prior to everything. For he is the head of all the aeons, and it is he who gives them strength in his goodness. For we know not the ineffable things, and we do not understand what is immeasurable, except for him who came forth from him, namely (from) the Father. For it is he who told it to us alone. For it is he who looks at himself in his light which surrounds him, namely the spring of the water of life. And it is he who gives to all the aeons and in every way, (and) who gazes upon his image which he sees in the spring of the Spirit. It is he who puts his desire in his water-light which is in the spring of the pure light-water which surrounds him.

This describes God creating another God, it also describes God as "more than a God"

I would love to share this with you because Idid some research and Adam and Eve are most definately in the Word of God. But both of your posts are confusing to me. No offense meant. It just sometimes takes time for me to "get it" but what do you mean by aeons and ineffable things. You are speak in the third person lypse. The Father is God, Jesus was born of virgin birth in to this world sinless because He is the Son of God, and this may be more confusing but He is also the Holy Spirit. Three in One Ominpotent God. The Trinity.

I'm confused but if I may ask just so we are all on the same narrow path here. Are you both saved? Have you accepted Jesus as Gods Son that He sacraficed on the cross, He suffered and though He was sinless, He cried out Why have you forsaken me? Do you also believe that he rose from the dead three days later after telling His disciples that the temple would be destroyed but rebuilt in three days? The temple was his body and as He was ressurrected He became a glorified spiritual light although He still had the same body, it was perfect. Do you believe that His death on the cross that we are saved if we choose to follow Him? Eternal salvation. He will separate the sheep from the goats. Just wondering where you both are and please please do not interpret this as any form of judgement. Just want to know what I'm working with if you would be so kind as to explain?

This may be long but you will want to read it since Observer you don't believe. And I'll get to the topic of free choice soon.

Actually I am going to post it in a separate thread because there is so much to back up Gods Word that will give you another option to continue to believe Adam and Eve are a myth or that God created man in His image.

Peace to you both.

Cj

Wait a sec.. you believe God is now a false God? That's a challenge. I do hope you will answer my question on if you believe you are saved or not. This is serious! Your eternal salvation is in jeapardy. Making a statement that that was so long ago that maybe that God is a false God. There is only one God and He is the Alpha and the Omega. Beginning and End. I do pray that you will study the word and ask for guidence in understanding the message. If you are truly saved, the Holy Spirit will speak to you.

Peace

Cj

Oh I made a new thread in apologetics regarding Adam and Eve with scripture to back it up. Just for you Observer Although I do hope it will shed light for anyone else as well. Except the non belivers of course but never know, God works in mysterious ways... Ooooooooooooooooo

[John Lennon]

Maybe I`m wrong, maybe I`m right. Doesn`t matter. For all we know the God of the old testament could be the false God of revelation, I mean he did make fire rain down from the sky and is capable of sin (jealousy). I`m not going to try and figure it out, but I am certainly not going to act like I know anything about who God is.

Lypse to get back on subject I would say to you get to know and love Jesus by getting to know and love others regardless of their fath, or faithlessness. Judge others only to the extant that you will have them judge you, and be willing to give up everything about yourself for the name of God. This last thing doesn`t mean go sell everything you own and become homeless as it says in the bible "Stay exactly how you were when you found me." I am willing to die to save my fiances life, but that doesn`t mean I have to kill myself.....understand? When you have this love for everything around you, you will come into the understanding of the love that Jesus ALREADY has for you.

"How am I to speak with you about him? His aeon is indestructible, at rest and existing in silence, reposing (and) being prior to everything. For he is the head of all the aeons, and it is he who gives them strength in his goodness. For we know not the ineffable things, and we do not understand what is immeasurable, except for him who came forth from him, namely (from) the Father. For it is he who told it to us alone. For it is he who looks at himself in his light which surrounds him, namely the spring of the water of life. And it is he who gives to all the aeons and in every way, (and) who gazes upon his image which he sees in the spring of the Spirit. It is he who puts his desire in his water-light which is in the spring of the pure light-water which surrounds him.

This describes God creating another God, it also describes God as "more than a God"

I would love to share this with you because Idid some research and Adam and Eve are most definately in the Word of God. But both of your posts are confusing to me. No offense meant. It just sometimes takes time for me to "get it" but what do you mean by aeons and ineffable things. You are speak in the third person lypse. The Father is God, Jesus was born of virgin birth in to this world sinless because He is the Son of God, and this may be more confusing but He is also the Holy Spirit. Three in One Ominpotent God. The Trinity.

I'm confused but if I may ask just so we are all on the same narrow path here. Are you both saved? Have you accepted Jesus as Gods Son that He sacraficed on the cross, He suffered and though He was sinless, He cried out Why have you forsaken me? Do you also believe that he rose from the dead three days later after telling His disciples that the temple would be destroyed but rebuilt in three days? The temple was his body and as He was ressurrected He became a glorified spiritual light although He still had the same body, it was perfect. Do you believe that His death on the cross that we are saved if we choose to follow Him? Eternal salvation. He will separate the sheep from the goats. Just wondering where you both are and please please do not interpret this as any form of judgement. Just want to know what I'm working with if you would be so kind as to explain?

This may be long but you will want to read it since Observer you don't believe. And I'll get to the topic of free choice soon.

Actually I am going to post it in a separate thread because there is so much to back up Gods Word that will give you another option to continue to believe Adam and Eve are a myth or that God created man in His image.

Peace to you both.

Cj

Wait a sec.. you believe God is now a false God? That's a challenge. I do hope you will answer my question on if you believe you are saved or not. This is serious! Your eternal salvation is in jeapardy. Making a statement that that was so long ago that maybe that God is a false God. There is only one God and He is the Alpha and the Omega. Beginning and End. I do pray that you will study the word and ask for guidence in understanding the message. If you are truly saved, the Holy Spirit will speak to you.

Peace

Cj

Oh I made a new thread in apologetics regarding Adam and Eve with scripture to back it up. Just for you Observer Although I do hope it will shed light for anyone else as well. Except the non belivers of course but never know, God works in mysterious ways... Ooooooooooooooooo

[John Lennon]

Maybe I`m wrong, maybe I`m right. Doesn`t matter. For all we know the God of the old testament could be the false God of revelation, I mean he did make fire rain down from the sky and is capable of sin (jealousy). I`m not going to try and figure it out, but I am certainly not going to act like I know anything about who God is.

Lypse to get back on subject I would say to you get to know and love Jesus by getting to know and love others regardless of their fath, or faithlessness. Judge others only to the extant that you will have them judge you, and be willing to give up everything about yourself for the name of God. This last thing doesn`t mean go sell everything you own and become homeless as it says in the bible "Stay exactly how you were when you found me." I am willing to die to save my fiances life, but that doesn`t mean I have to kill myself.....understand? When you have this love for everything around you, you will come into the understanding of the love that Jesus ALREADY has for you.

"How am I to speak with you about him? His aeon is indestructible, at rest and existing in silence, reposing (and) being prior to everything. For he is the head of all the aeons, and it is he who gives them strength in his goodness. For we know not the ineffable things, and we do not understand what is immeasurable, except for him who came forth from him, namely (from) the Father. For it is he who told it to us alone. For it is he who looks at himself in his light which surrounds him, namely the spring of the water of life. And it is he who gives to all the aeons and in every way, (and) who gazes upon his image which he sees in the spring of the Spirit. It is he who puts his desire in his water-light which is in the spring of the pure light-water which surrounds him.

This describes God creating another God, it also describes God as "more than a God"

I would love to share this with you because Idid some research and Adam and Eve are most definately in the Word of God. But both of your posts are confusing to me. No offense meant. It just sometimes takes time for me to "get it" but what do you mean by aeons and ineffable things. You are speak in the third person lypse. The Father is God, Jesus was born of virgin birth in to this world sinless because He is the Son of God, and this may be more confusing but He is also the Holy Spirit. Three in One Ominpotent God. The Trinity.

I'm confused but if I may ask just so we are all on the same narrow path here. Are you both saved? Have you accepted Jesus as Gods Son that He sacraficed on the cross, He suffered and though He was sinless, He cried out Why have you forsaken me? Do you also believe that he rose from the dead three days later after telling His disciples that the temple would be destroyed but rebuilt in three days? The temple was his body and as He was ressurrected He became a glorified spiritual light although He still had the same body, it was perfect. Do you believe that His death on the cross that we are saved if we choose to follow Him? Eternal salvation. He will separate the sheep from the goats. Just wondering where you both are and please please do not interpret this as any form of judgement. Just want to know what I'm working with if you would be so kind as to explain?

This may be long but you will want to read it since Observer you don't believe. And I'll get to the topic of free choice soon.

Actually I am going to post it in a separate thread because there is so much to back up Gods Word that will give you another option to continue to believe Adam and Eve are a myth or that God created man in His image.

Peace to you both.

Cj

Wait a sec.. you believe God is now a false God? That's a challenge. I do hope you will answer my question on if you believe you are saved or not. This is serious! Your eternal salvation is in jeapardy. Making a statement that that was so long ago that maybe that God is a false God. There is only one God and He is the Alpha and the Omega. Beginning and End. I do pray that you will study the word and ask for guidence in understanding the message. If you are truly saved, the Holy Spirit will speak to you.

Peace

Cj

Oh I made a new thread in apologetics regarding Adam and Eve with scripture to back it up. Just for you Observer Although I do hope it will shed light for anyone else as well. Except the non belivers of course but never know, God works in mysterious ways... Ooooooooooooooooo

[John Lennon]

Is'nt it obvious that the stories like Adam & Eve are fiction? Mythology is all through the bible probably to do nothing more than teach simple lessons of morality. But any logical human being can differentiate between right and wrong-you do'nt need religion for that.

[Christian]

Is'nt it obvious that the stories like Adam & Eve are fiction?

No

Mythology is all through the bible probably to do nothing more than teach simple lessons of morality.

Mythology is contained in mythology, and all throughout other "religions". There is none contained in the Bible.

But any logical human being can differentiate between right and wrong-you do'nt need religion for that.

By God's standard mankind discerns "right and wrong", but right and wrong does not save one's soul...Christ does.

[John Lennon]

Only people who reject the Gospel message and what Jesus has done for them will be held accountable. People who never get the oppurtunity to accept or reject can't be held accountable for something they don't know.

I'm sorry dear soul, but that is patently false. We all stand condemned because of our sin and the sin imputed to us through Adam. We do not get a free pass just because we do not hear about Jesus. If what you say is true we are doing a great disservice spreading the gospel. If what you say is true then it would be better if we told no one about Jesus. Then they would get a free pass to Heaven in their ignorance.

sw

[John Lennon]

Only people who reject the Gospel message and what Jesus has done for them will be held accountable. People who never get the oppurtunity to accept or reject can't be held accountable for something they don't know.

I'm sorry dear soul, but that is patently false. We all stand condemned because of our sin and the sin imputed to us through Adam. We do not get a free pass just because we do not hear about Jesus. If what you say is true we are doing a great disservice spreading the gospel. If what you say is true then it would be better if we told no one about Jesus. Then they would get a free pass to Heaven in their ignorance.

sw