Remarrying after a Divorce....is it forbidden?

[billie]

1 Cor 7:12,13 "If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him."

1 Cor 7:15 "But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances."

[Naziyr]

I think maybe I didn't state it right or something so I'm gonna restate B.) in a different way.

"b.) Conversion of one of the two spouses to Christianity, in which one is allowed to divorce their spouse and maintain peace with them."

When I said "in which one is allowed to divorce their spouse to maintain peace with them" I meant such as, if the two cannot live peacibly. Which is what Paul talks about in 1 Cor. 7.

=)

Shalom

[billie]

It doesn't say divorce is permissable if the two aren't living peaceably.

What exactly do you consider living peaceably? Almost every marriage has a point where it could be said to be not peaceable.

It simply says what's there. If the unbeliever wants to stay married, don't divorce. If the unbeliever leaves, then the believer is freed from their vows.

I don't in any way think Paul intended for this to include abusive situations, but other than that the Scripture's pretty clear.

[Naziyr]

"But to the rest I say, not the L-rd, if any brother has an unbelieving wife, and she consents to live with him, let him not leave her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, let her not leave him."

1 Corinthians 7:12-13

"But if the unbelieving one separates, let them be separated; the brother or the sister is not in bondage in such matters; but G-d has called us in peace."

1 Corinthians 7:15

Basically what Paul's saying, is that if you become saved, and your unbelieving spouse is okay with you being Christian and wants to live with you, then stay with them. But if not and they don't want to be with you now, then let them go on their way. My mention of "Peacibly" refers to this, that they should be at peace, even if that means apart from eachother. But we shouldn't be with them if they don't want to be with us, for we contribute ourselves to bondage.

Further Paul preaches against "Missionary Marriages" in which you stay with them based on the premise that you want to convert them, even if they don't want to convert, or don't want to be with you.

"For what do you know, wife, whether you will save the husband? Or what do you know, husband, whether you will save the wife?"

1 Corinthians 7:16

It has to be mentioned, that Paul grew up in the Hebrew culture, even going as far as being a Pharisee (which Translated as "Seperate", a branch of Scribal Jews that came into the picture around Jesus' time)... so he knew all about Hebrew wedding custom, which is for the families of both of the two people involved, to come up on some contractional agreement for the marriage. Such things as "husband's duty" and other aspects of taking care of eachother were written in the contract. This contract when agreed upon by the two getting married, was legally binding both civily and spiritually. Today we have "wedding vows" which is likened to the anchient practice of declaring a "wedding covenant" between two people. If you make a vow, and you break it, are you or the person you vowed to still held under the vow? For example, if the U.S. makes an alliance with France (a covenant) and france fires a nuke and wipes out New York, are we still bound by our "vow" to be allies to them? No! They broke the alliance, so now we are no longer married.

This applies to couples. If you vow to "love, honor, and serve" your spouse, and you don't, should they be bound by that covenant still? If you transgress the covenant agreements, it is your spouses decision whether or not to stay with you. Just like in the case of a married person fornicating, in which though Scripture gives a reason for divorce, the wife or husband may choose to be merciful and not divorce their repentant spouse.

I think that's what I mean when I said what I said.

Shalom

[Guest godgivesall4us]

it seems that my memory serves me correctly when I say that divorce as i see it today in the church was never taught this way before the church of england began to accept it a few, maybe 3 centuries ago? less?

Why would it change?

I don't see anyone accepting divorce as a teaching until maybe 300 years ago or so. do you?

[billie]

I'm still having a problem with this.

No marriage partner's perfect. Eventually someone's going to do something "unloving", "dishonorable", or "un-er,um-serving(?)". This would have the same effect as Moses allowing husbands to write their wives a certificate of divorce if she so much as burned his food.

This is why Jesus was very specific in which reason for divorce is acceptable.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I know what Scripture says about how a marriage should be. I also know that, as fallible, sinful humans, we'll always miss that mark. I believe the Scripture here is backing up the idea that, if the unbeliever's willing to try and make it work, how much further should we, as Christians, who are supposed to know more than they about marriage, seeing as we're in intimate relationship with the founder of that institution, go to make it work?

[Guest godgivesall4us]

i actually perceived it to be that Jesus said whatever GOD hath put together(a true marriage, valid) ler no man put asunder, and that if the=is was not the case, they were living in adultery, fornication, and need to be seperated(divorced).]

weren't there the leftovers of the OT at the time that needed mending in order for them to be Christians, such as polygamy, and the like? I believe so.

[Guest godgivesall4us]

Christ said that whatever God has put together, no man can put asunder, right?

Then Christ said that the only time divorce(seperation) is allowable, is when immorality is present.\

paraphrasing.

If this meant that two Christians who gave themselves freely to each other and God in marriage, and the marriage was valid, then one of them cheated on the other and they were able to get divorced, that would mean that MAN has taken apart what God had put together, and Christ just made it clear that this is impossible.

Humans actions cannot take apart the marriage in the sight of God, or it would contradict what Christ first said.

The reality of what Christ said, is that any persons within a marriage that is not put together by God(ie, polygamous, justice of the peace, hindu etc....) are in just that, an immoral lifestyle, an immoral partnership that needs to be seperated or corrected.

Christ does not contradict Himself ever, and when you claim that two believers in a Christian marriage can divorce, that is saying that human error(human power0 can seperate what God has put together.

if someone in a marriage is abusive, stealing all the money etc, the two can be seperated, but never divorced in Gods eyes for they are in a sacred covenant which God has bound and no human action can seperate truly. They are called to lead chaste lives apart from each other, giving up their sacrificial living to God and others in service.

]

peace godgivesall4us

[Guest godgivesall4us]

instead of taking what I deem to be your contemporary thinking on this subject. Show me someone before the reformers that allowed divorce. historically in the church, preaching it, teaching it, outside of scripture and teaching it about this passage in scripture. it seems we have a huge amount of writings from the earyl church in the first 1500 years, i am sure you can come up with several examples instead of creating the information from new thinking.

Certainly if this idea were true, the entire church would have practiced it.

peace, godgivesall4us

[Guest godgivesall4us]

fortunately, tertullian lays out the facts concerning the dogmatic teaching.

CHAP. IX.--FROM EXAMPLES TERTULLIAN PASSES TO DIRECT DOGMATIC TEACHINGS. HE BEGINS WITH THE LORD'S TEACHING.

But grant that these argumentations may be thought to be forced and founded on conjectures, if no dogmatic teachings have stood parallel with them which the Lord uttered in treating of divorce, which, permitted formerly, He now prohibits, first because "from the beginning it was not so," like plurality of marriage; secondly, because "What God hath conjoined, man shall not separate,"--for fear, namely, that he contravene the Lord: for He alone shall "separate" who has "conjoined" (separate, moreover, not through the harshness of divorce, which (harshness) He censures and restrains, but through the debt of death) if, indeed, "one of two sparrows falleth not on the ground without the Father's will." Therefore if those whom God has conjoined man shall not separate by divorce, it is equally congruous that those whom God has separated by death man is not to conjoin by marriage; the joining of the separation will be just as contrary to God's will as would have been the separation of the conjunction.

So far as regards the non-destruction of the will of God, and the restruction of the law of "the beginning." But another reason, too, conspires; nay, not another, but (one)which imposed the law of "the beginning," and moved the will of God to prohibit divorce: the fact thatwho shall have dismissed his wife, except on the ground of adultery, makes her commit adultery; and who shall have married a (woman) dismissed by her husband, of course commits adultery. A divorced woman cannot even marry legitimately; and if she commit any such act without the name of marriage, does it not fall under the category of adultery, in that adultery is crime in the way of marriage? Such is God's verdict, within straiter limits than men's, that universally, whether through marriage or promiscuously, the admission of a second man (to intercourse) is pronounced adultery by Him. For let us see what marriage is in the eye of God; and thus we shall learn what adultery equally is. Marriage is (this): when God joins "two into one flesh;" or else, finding (them already) joined in the same flesh, has given His seal to the conjunction. Adultery is (this): when, the two having been--in whatsoever way--disjoined, other--nay, rather alien--flesh is mingled (with either): flesh concerning which it cannot be affirmed, "This is flesh out of my flesh, and this bone out of my bones." For this, once for all done and pronounced, as from the beginning, so now too, cannot apply to "other" flesh. Accordingly, it will be without cause that you will say that God wills not a divorced woman to be joined to another man "while her husband liveth," as if He do will it "when he is dead;" whereas if she is not bound to him when dead, no more is she when living. "Alike when divorce dissevers marriage as when death does, she will not be bound to him by whom the binding medium has been broken off." To whom, then, will she be bound? In the eye of God, it matters nought whether she marry during her life or after his death. For it is not against him that she sins, but against herself. "Any sin which a man may have committed is external to the body; but ] who commits adultery sins against his own body." But--as we have previously laid down above--whoever shall intermingle with himself "other" flesh, over and above that pristine flesh which God either conjoined into two or else found (already) conjoined, commits adultery. And the reason why He has abolished divorce, which "was not from the beginning," is, that He may strengthen that which "was from the beginning"--the permanent conjunction, (namely), of "two into one flesh:" for fear that necessity or opportunity for a third union of flesh may make an irruption (into His dominion); permitting divorce to no cause but one--if, (that is), the (evil) against which precaution is taken chance to have occurred beforehand. So true, moreover, is it that divorce "was not from the beginning," that among the Romans it is not till after the six hundredth year from the building of the city that this kind of "hard-heartedness" is set down as having been committed. But they indulge in promiscuous adulteries, even without divorcing (their partners): to us, even if we do divorce them, even marriage will not be lawful.

CHAP. X.--ST. PAUL'S TEACHING ON THE SUBJECT.

From this point I see that we are challenged by an appeal to the apostle; for the more easy apprehension of whose meaning we must all the more earnestly inculcate (the assertion), that a woman is more bound when her husband is dead not to admit (to marriage) another husband. For let us reflect that divorce either is caused by discord, or else causes discord; whereas death is an event resulting from the law of God, not from an offence of man; and that it is a debt which all owe, even the unmarried. Therefore, if a divorced woman, who has been separated (from her husband)in soul as well as body, through discord, anger, hatred, and the causes of these--injury, or contumely, or whatsoever cause of complaint--is bound to a personal enemy, not to say a husband, how much more will one who, neither by her own nor her husband's fault, but by an event resulting from the Lord's law, has been--not separated from, but left behind by--her consort, be his, even when dead, to whom, even when dead, she owes (the debt of) concord? From him from whom she has heard no (word of) divorce she does not turn away; with him she is, to whom she has written no (document of) divorce; him whom she was unwilling to have lost, she retains. She has within her the licence of the mind, which represents to a man, in imaginary enjoyment, all things which he has not. In short, I ask the woman herself, "Tell me, sister, have you sent your husband before you (to his rest) in peace?" What will she answer? (Will she say), "In discord?" In that case she is the more bound to him with whom she has a cause (to plead) at the bar of God. She who is bound (to another) has not departed (from him). But (will she say), "In peace?" In that case, she must necessarily persevere in that (peace) with him whom she will no longer have the power to divorce; not that she would, even if she had been able to divorce him, have been marriageable. Indeed, she prays for his soul, and requests refreshment for him meanwhile, and fellowship (with him) in the first resurrection; and she offers (her sacrifice) on the anniversaries of his falling asleep. For, unless she does these deeds, she has in the true sense divorced him, so far as in her lies; and indeed the more iniquitously--inasmuch as (she did it) as far as was in her power--because she had no power (to do it); and with the more indignity, inasmuch as it is with more indignity if (her reason for doing it is) because he did not deserve it. Or else shall we, pray, cease to be after death, according to (the teaching of) some Epicurus, and not according to (that of) Christ? But if we believe the resurrection of the dead, of course we shall be bound to them with whom we are destined to rise, to render an account the one of the other. "But if 'in that age they will neither marry nor be given in marriage, but will be equal to angels,' is not the fact that there will be no restitution of the conjugal relation a reason why we shall not be bound to our departed consorts?" Nay, but the more shall we be bound (to them), because we are destined to a better estate--destined (as we are) to rise to a spiritual consortship, to recognise as well our own selves as them who are ours. Else how shall we sing thanks to God to eternity, if there shall remain in us no sense and memory of this debt; if we shall be reformed in substance, not in consciousness? Consequently, we who shall be with God shall be together; since we shall all be with the one God--albeit the wages be various, albeit there be "many mansions", in the house of the same Father having laboured for the "one penny " of the self-same hire, that is, of eternal life; in which (eternal life) God will still less separate them whom He has conjoined, than in this lesser life He forbids them to be separated.

Since this is so, how will a woman have room for another husband, who is, even to futurity, in the possession of her own? (Moreover, we speak to each sex, even if our discourse address itself but to the one; inasmuch as one discipline is incumbent [on both].) She will have one in spirit, one in flesh. This will be adultery, the conscious affection of one woman for two men. If the one has been disjoined from her flesh, but remains in her heart--in that place where even cogitation without carnal contact achieves beforehand both adultery by concupiscence, and matrimony by volition--he is to this hour her husband, possessing the very thing which is the mean whereby he became so--her mind, namely, in which withal, if another shall find a habitation, this will be a crime. Besides, excluded he Is not, if he has withdrawn from viler carnal commerce. A more honourable husband is he, in proportion as he is become more pure.

CHAP. XI.--FURTHER REMARKS UPON ST. PAUL'S

TEACHING.

Grant, now, that you marry "in the Lord," in accordance with the law and the apostle--if, notwithstanding, you care even about this--with what face do you request (the solemnizing of) a matrimony which is unlawful to those of whom you request it; of a monogamist bishop, of presbyters and deacons bound by the same solemn engagement, of widows whose Order you have in your own person refused? And they, plainly, will give husbands and wives as they would morsels of bread; for this is their rendering of "To every one who asketh thee thou shalt give!" And they will join you together in a virgin church, the one betrothed of the one Christ! And you will pray for your husbands, the new and the old. Make your election, to which of the twain you will play the adulteress. I think, to both. But if you have any wisdom, be silent on behalf of the dead one. Let your silence be to him a divorce, already endorsed in the dotal gifts of another. In this way you will earn the new husband's favour, if you forget the old. You ought to take more pains to please him for whose sake you have not preferred to please God! Such (conduct) the Psychics will have it the apostle approved, or else totally failed to think about, when he wrote: "The woman is bound for such length of time as her husband liveth; but if he shall have died, she is free; whom she will let her marry, only in the Lord." For it is out of this passage that they draw their defence of the licence of second marriage; nay, even of (marriages) to any amount, if of second (marriage): for that which has ceased to be once.for all, is open to any and every number. But the sense in which the apostle did write will be apparent, if first an agreement be come to that he did not write it in the sense of which the Psychics avail themselves. Such an agreement, moreover, will be come to if one first recall to mind those (passages) which are diverse from the passage in question, when tried by the standard of doctrine, of volition, and of Paul's own discipline. For, if he permits second nuptials, which were not "from the beginning," how does he affirm that all things are being recollected to the beginning in Christ? If he wills us to iterate conjugal connections, how does he maintain that "our seed is called" in the but once married Isaac as its author? How does he make monogamy the base of his disposition of the whole Ecclesiastical Order, if this rule does not antecedently hold good in the case of laics, from whose ranks the Ecclesiastical Order proceeds? How does he call away from the enjoyment of marriage such as are still in the married position, saying that "the time is wound up," if he calls back again into marriage such as through death had escaped from marriage? If these (passages) are diverse from that one about which the present question is, it will be agreed (as we have said) that he did not write in that sense.of which the Psychics avail themselves; inasmuch as it is easier (of belief) that that one passage should have some explanation agreeable with the others, than that an apostle should seem to have taught (principles) mutually diverse. That explanation we shall be able to discover in the subject-matter itself. What was the subject-matter which led the apostle to write such (words)? The inexperience of a new and just rising Church, which he was rearing, to wit, "with milk," not yet with the "solid food" of stronger doctrine; inexperience so great, that that infancy of faith prevented them from yet knowing what they were to do in regard of carnal and sexual necessity. The very phases themselves of this (inexperience) are intelligible from (the apostle's) rescripts, when he says: "But concerning these (things) which ye write; good it is for a man not to touch a woman; but, on account of fornications, let each one have his own wife." He shows that there were who, having been "apprehended by the faith" in (the state of) marriage, were apprehensive that it might not be lawful for them thenceforward to enjoy their marriage, because they had believed on the holy flesh of Christ. And yet it is "by way of allowance" that he makes the concession, "not by way of command;" that is, indulging, not enjoining, the practice. On the other hand, he "willed rather" that all should be what he himself was. Similarly, too, in sending a rescript on (the subject of) divorce, he demonstrates that some had been thinking over that also, chiefly because withal they did not suppose that they were to persevere, after faith, in heathen marriages. They sought counsel, further, "concerning virgins"--for "precept of the Lord" there was none-- (and were told) that "it is good for a man if he so remain permanently;" ("so"), of course, as he may have been found by the faith. "Thou hast been bound to a wife, seek not loosing; thou hast been loosed from a wife, seek not a wife." "But if thou shalt have taken to (thyself) a wife, thou hast not sinned;" because to one who, before believing, had been "loosed from a wife," she will not be counted a second wife who, subsequently to believing, is the first: for it is from (the time of our) believing that our life itself dates its origin. But here he says that he "is sparing them;" else "pressure of the flesh" would shortly follow, in consequence of the straits of the times, which shunned the encumbrances of marriage: yea, rather solicitude must be felt about earning the Lord's favour than a husband's. And thus he recalls his permission. So, then, in the very same passage in which he definitely rules that "each one ought permanently to remain in that calling in which he shall be called;" adding, "A woman is bound so long as her husband liveth; but if he shall have fallen asleep, she is free: whom she shall wish let her marry, only in the Lord," he hence also demonstrates that such a woman is to be understood as has withal herself been "found" (by the faith) "loosed from a husband," similarly as the husband "loosed from a wife"--the "loosing" having taken place through death, of course, not through divorce; inasmuch as to the divorced he would grant no permission to marry, in the teeth of the primary precept. And so "a woman, if she shall have married, will not sin;" because he will not be reckoned a second husband who is, subsequently to her believing, the first, any more (than a wife thus taken will be counted a second wife). And so truly is this the case, that he therefore adds, "only in the Lord;" because the question in agitation was about her who had had a heathen (husband), and had believed subsequently to losing him: for fear, to wit, that she might presume herself able to marry a heathen even after believing; albeit not even this is an object of care to the Psychics. Let us plainly know that, in the Greek original, it does not stand in the form which (through the either crafty or simple alteration of two syllables) has gone out into common use, "But if her husband shall haze fallen asleep," as if it were speaking of the future, and thereby seemed to pertain to her who has lost her husband when already in a believing state. If this indeed had been so, licence let loose without limit would have granted a (fresh) husband as often as one had been lost, without @ any such modesty in marrying as is congruous even to heathens. But even if it had been so, as if referring to future tim,e, "If any (woman's). husband shall have died, even the future would just as much pertain to her whose husband shall die before she believed. Take it which way you. will, provided you do not overturn the rest. For since these (other passages) agree to the sense (given above): "Thou hast been called a slave; care not:" "Thou hast been called in uncircumcision; be not circumcised:" "Thou hast been called in circumcision; become not uncircumcised:" with which concurs, "Thou hast been bound to a wife; seek not loosing: thou hast been loosed from a wife; seek not a wife,"--manifest enough it is that these passages pertain to such as, finding themselves in a new and recent "calling," were consulting (the apostle) on the subject of those (circumstantial conditions) in which they had been "apprehended" by the faith.

This will be the interpretation of that passage, to be examined as to whether it be congruous with the time and the occasion, and with the examples and arguments preceding as well as with the sentences and senses succeeding, and primarily with the individual advice and practice of the apostle himself: for nothing is so much to be guarded as (the care) that no one be found self-contradictory.