Total Depravity

[endure4salvation]

1) Is obedience in a perfect degree an absolute for salvation? Is this concept debateable?

Why would one even want to debate this concept? Are you wanting to see how much hell you can have in your life and still go to heaven?

2) Specifically (if the above in not true), is baptism (and what else) explicitly a condition of salvation? If someone is not immersed (I assume you agree on this mode) but sprinkled, are they lost?

As for the first question here, can you think of any condition attached to salvation? As for the second, I would respond with two questions.........what does the Bible say? What was the original teaching handed down by the original apostles that walked with Jesus for 3 years?

What denomination do you identify with? Church of Christ?

This is where we all get into trouble. I have no denomination affiliation and absolutely refuse to accept one. I am a Christian first and only. I have no church creed or set of beliefs that I follow. I follow the original Church teachings and doctrine as not to be deceived by the teachings of man. I can't for the life of me even fathom why anybody would be willing to call themselves something other then a Christian by attaching a man-made church's teachings/doctrine.

PS: to answer my own question about conditions on salvation, read all the verses in my signature.

[godrulz]

I like many of your ideas Endure. It seems a bit superspiritual to claim to have the early church insights on all beliefs. Many individuals or groups like to claim that (including cults). Do you attend a local church? Is it independent? Does it have a statement of faith? Could its mission be more impactful, accountable, and efficient if it linked with other like-minded fellowships?

1) Supreme choice: Live for God (love, obey) or live for Self (disobedience; rebellion).

2) Subordinate choices: Obey in specific areas of moral truth. We are to be 'perfect'= mature. These choices will reflect our supreme choice (or disobey in fleshly choices).

Growth= time + obedience (living up to the light we have) + Spirit/Word.

3) One cannot obey and disobey at the same time (mixed motives/actions).

4) I John 1:9 (to believers) If we sin...there is provision for forgiveness. One sin does not sever the relationship. We do not need to get resaved at an altar weekly. We need to confess/repent to restore the intimacy. If we chose to live supremely and finally for self, we sever the relationship.

cf. Marriage (disagreement is not divorce)

[endure4salvation]

If you want to know, look for the restoration movement via search. You will find a whole lot:

Within the United States, as well as around the world, there is a growing number of people who have come to be known as "Christians" only. Their congregations are simply called Christian Churches or Churches of Christ.

The uniqueness of this group lies in its desire to restore the church of the New Testament, not in its form of dress, mode of transportation, or in the language spoken or read, but in its doctrines, ordinances, and faith. Because of this position, this purpose to restore, we have come to look upon ourselves as the "RESTORATION MOVEMENT."

This movement is not "just another denomination," since we have not chosen a denominational or "man-made" name, creed, or book of doctrine. Our name, as individual members, is Christian and as congregations, Churches of Christ or Christian Churches. As these terms are scriptural and based upon the Word of God, we can honestly claim to be "Christians only." We are not the only Christians; we are Christians only!

As to our creed (from the Latin "credo," meaning "I believe") we believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God, as Lord and as Savior. Our book of doctrine, or list of beliefs, is simply the Word of God. Thus as one man has expressed it, "We have no creed but Christ, no book but the Bible, no name but the name Christian."

Not only are we non-denominational, but in reality we are not even Protestants.

You can read the rest of the article at the following link:

http://www.thecra.org/restmovement.html

[godrulz]

Thank you for the interesting link. There are so many groups, Christian and cult, to become aware of.

Despite the protests against denominations, etc. it is interesting to see an Institute and a fellowship of churches with a belief statement. This is a thinly veiled semantic attempt to distance oneself from what one is becoming (denomination is not a dirty word).

[endure4salvation]

godrulz, Do you think that I belong to a cult?

[godrulz]

Cult,No! Sect maybe. 'Denomination' practically. I have not looked at your beliefs, but I am sure we agree on the heart of Christianity.

A 'Christian cult' would talk about Jesus, Bible, etc. but have significant error and heresy. It is outside Biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity.

e.g. J.W.; Mormon

I just suggest there are many genuine Christian groups that emphasize different things and have some heresies (half truths). I consider you a brother in Christ due to our agreement on Biblical essentials.

I am Pentecostal. There are 100s of sects within Pentecostalism. e.g. Restoration (Tabernacle of David), Oneness, Apostolic, Church of God, etc. Some are more extreme than others. Some are authoritarian and very sectish and divisive. Others are practically Baptist. What about the Word-Faith groups or charismatic groups that still mix Catholicism in.

For example, I think you believe in Baptismal regeneration. I reject this as extra/contrabiblical, but do not see it as a salvific issue. You, however, may feel my children are not saved because they have not been baptized yet (?). I am baptized for the record and believe every believer should be.

I simply meant there is a plethora of Christian groups and no end to false religions to learn about. We all think we have cornered the market on truth.

Jesus is the key common denominator in our fellowship with those who differ on non-essentials.

See you in heaven, brother.

[endure4salvation]

Well, OK.

Fair enough. I don't know what a sect is, but that is alright. I just preach holiness and endurance. I don't hold to any herisy doctrines--at least I don't think! If I do, then I pray that God will lead me to the fullness of the truth.

God bless you!

[godrulz]

I have always liked your heart and attitude. We all need to trust the Holy Spirit through the Word to lead us to accurate knowledge of God and His ways. It is a revelation of a person, more than a systematic doctrinal textbook.

I think of a sect as being a branch of legitimate groups that might have unique ideas or practices.

e.g. there are Pentecostals that handle snakes (Mk. 16). They are off the wall in this presumptious practice, but some may still know God. Other sects are legalistic about dress codes, jewelry, cultural taboos, etc. This does not make them non-Christian necessarily.

You can have sects of Islam and Judaism (so not all sects are legit.)

I doubt you are in a sect, and certainly not in a cult (false religion on essentials). It is not my place to judge and discern without more information. Let us continue to love and seek God with all our hearts.

Webster's Dictionary

Sect: 'to follow'; a religious denomination, esp. a small group that has broken away from an established church; a faction of a larger group; any group of people having a common leadership, set of opinions, philosophical doctrine, political principles, etc.

sectarian: narrow-minded; apostate from original church; blindly devoted.

[endure4salvation]

For example, I think you believe in Baptismal regeneration.

Actually, I believe in obedience to the commands of our Lord Jesus, and He said that we need to, so why treat it like it is foreign to the Scriptures?

I will say over and over that we are required to obey Jesus in order to enter heaven...just like he and all His apostles said.

That is simple, huh?

[godrulz]

I meant 'baptismal regeneration' as a precise, descriptive term for the belief that baptism is a condition of salvation. I agree that obedience is necessary. I feel tithing is an act of worship and obedience. I feel remembering the Lord's Supper obeys His command. I believe baptism is an important step of obedient discipleship. I believe sharing the Gospel is obedience to a clear command. I do not believe doing any of the above will get me in heaven, not keep me out of it. Practically, I believe I can preach the Gospel to someone dying of cancer. During their last minutes, they can repent and trust Christ and be with Him forever. It is the death and resurrection of Christ, the grace and mercy of God, not baptism that saves us.