Total Depravity

[endure4salvation]

--. I just preach holiness and endurance.

E4--could you "describe" or "define" {HOLINESS}----for me please??????--

thank you-----------Gary--

Hi Gary! You asked if I can describe or define holiness....

No.

But God can...His truths are in His eternal Word...have you ever done a Bible study on holiness?

God does a much better job than I do!

But the idea is that God's grace is what saves us, right? Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that works are insufficient for us to earn salvation, and that it is God's grace that saves us.

But it also says that it is through our faith that we are saved. What is faith? Trusting and believing in God! Trusting that we are sinners and that He is holy.

And we can be saved FROM our sins. Does this mean that we cannot commit one sin or we are cut off from salvation and killed and sent to hell? No, that is ludicrous, God is a compassionate Father and knows that we are going to mess up. But does this mean that we can just sin away and trust that God's grace is sufficient to save us? No, because sin is the ANTI-FAITH! It shows that we don't trust God enough to believe that He is powerful enough to save us FROM our sins.

The whole thing is the condition of our heart. When we get to the place where we see how horrible our sins are to a holy and all-powerful God, we should be brokenhearted over this and strive to abstain from all forms of sin.

If we come to the place where we are treating sin like it is undesirable, but do nothing about removing it from our lives, then what we have done is accepted a view of God's grace that is distorted--that would be an abusive grace.

Remember, according to the Bible, true grace will teach us to not want to sin and will teach us to be good little workers for God's cause:

Titus 2:11-14

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good works.

It is a heart condition:

Do you (not Gary you, but Christian you) want to keep your little sins of comfort because you are under grace? That is abusive grace.

Or do you want to completely abstain from sin because you love Jesus and know that it is the better (and only) way to live as a Christian. That is Biblical grace.

--For those of you who believe that stillborn and aborted and sids babies go to hell can you show me Biblical proof?

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING----RIGHT????? what nin-com-poop--believes this????seriously?????

---sheeeessssssshhhhhh--------Gary--

If you have ever studied Calvinism, you will know that they use an acronym for their theology:

TULIP

the "T" stands for Total Depravity.

There are differing views of this among those that profess to believe it.

Some say that all people are as bad as they can be (depraved) spiritually from birth and that none can choose to do good because they don't have the will to do good.

Others say that people can do good, but that it is for the wrong motives, thus making it useless anyway....which really takes us back to the first point when really examined. God bless you, friend and brother!

[sagz4Christ]

*all quotes taken from NIV*

I would like first to say that I believe that all babies...aborted...sids...otherwise, go to heaven. However...I have some verses I need someone to reconcile for me.

They all fit together somehow, I am am almost convinced they fit in this topic, but I don't know how...so I am asking for help. Let us begin:

Exodus 33

18 Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."

19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD , in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

Romans 9

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

  "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

      and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Romans 3

9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:

  "There is no one righteous, not even one;

        11 there is no one who understands,

      no one who seeks God.

*ref. Psalm 14:1-3 and 53:1-3

Isaiah 64

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,

and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;

we all shrivel up like a leaf,

and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

And then this one....

Romans 9

20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

I don't know how they all fit together...and I can't see how we can get anything but total depravity from these verses....but that is why I am asking for help. I heard it said by someone....I forget who...that we aren't totaly depraved...just morally sick..suggesting that all we need is the proper medication to enable us to become "healthy" and make the right choices ourselves. I have to disagree with this due to the overwhelming support that seems to speak to total depravity.

Mind you, I am not claiming I am a Calvanist...I am a Christian...but I think Calvan was on to something here. We need God in our lives. We also need to remembe that when we are saved...when we believe on Christ, "WE," that is, our old selves...was buried...died...became as Christ in the tomb...and we were raised in NEWNESS of life with Christ when He rose from the dead.

We no longer have that old nature...we have now the nature of Christ...HIS righteousness in us...HIS power to overcome and endure...and that is the power we rely upon, for if we do anything else....we put to death again Christ who already died ONCE for ALL!

At least that is my understanding of it.

~your servant in Christ after all TRUTH

[endure4salvation]

Hi Sagz! I am thoroughly amazed that this topic somehow went back on topic...

Anyway, I will try to take your post and pick it a bit, from my limited understanding...

I would like first to say that I believe that all babies...aborted...sids...otherwise, go to heaven. However...I have some verses I need someone to reconcile for me.

They all fit together somehow, I am am almost convinced they fit in this topic, but I don't know how...so I am asking for help. Let us begin:

Exodus 33

18 Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."

19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD , in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

I must say that I don't see how this verse fits into this discussion. This verse is not dealing with any sort of youth or innocence or guilt from sin.

Romans 9

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

  "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

      and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

This verse is not dealing with salvation, because it says, "the older will SERVE the younger." And as for did God really HATE Esau, remember that Jesus told us in order to be a follower of Him, we have to actually HATE our parents...does He really mean HATE? No, He tells us to love our parents in the 10 Commandments and repeats this in several places in the NT, but Mark 7 is one specific place.

Romans 3

9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:

  "There is no one righteous, not even one;

        11 there is no one who understands,

      no one who seeks God.

*ref. Psalm 14:1-3 and 53:1-3

If this verse were to stand alone, then I would have to say that it is pretty good evidence, but also note that these aren't the only verses that deal with this in the writings of Paul. One doesn't even need to leave the book of Romans to find out additional truths on this subject:

Romans 7:9-11

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.  I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.  For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

Paul clearly states that he was ***alive*** apart from the law. Remember that the Jews had what was called the 'Age Of Accountability.' Jesus even observed this when he was 12 years old...did Luke include this by mistake or did God know that this was revelant to these type of discussions?

This could only be talking about innocence while a child because he had no knowledge of good or evil:

Isaiah 7:15-16 (prophecy concerning Jesus)

He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right.  But before the boy knows to reject the wrong and choose the right...

Deuteronomy 1:39

And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not know yet good from bad--they will enter the land.

Isaiah 64

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,

and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;

we all shrivel up like a leaf,

and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Note that Isaiah states that we have BECOME as unclean, not that we are born that way.

Romans 9

20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Again, this verse is not deailing with individual salvation, but is dealing with PURPOSES and USE of the vessel, not the eternal destination.

[sagz4Christ]

Great prely Jake, and for the most part, I tend to agree with you.

I used the Exodus verses because I think they tend to speak to the fact that God will have mercy on who He will have mercy...to include children.

The verse in Romans 9 I used about questioning God I think tends to lean also to the fact that God calls who He will. This passage is talking about who are the actual children of God. And Paul even started the chapter by honestly saying he was in anguish for his brothers and sisters of his own race...that of Israel.

2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel.

When I read this chapter, I tend to see Paul talking about the supposed contradiction of God's word in that the Jews are the children of promise. Paul says that not all who are desenced from Israel are Israel, and nor because they are desencded from Abraham are they his children. We then see the lead into the passage I quoted earlier.

In essense, I think this chapter is dealing with the dispersment of the promise of God...who are His children? It is laid out. I think it speaks heavily of God's mercy and election (I know this is an evil word). That is why I quoted it because it may help us to understand alittle better the mercies of God. I could be wrong though and that is why I asked for some help.

As for the hate we find in the verse....to conform to the whole of Scripture, we need to understand that, though we are talking about the same word, there is a negetive and positive aspect to it. In this verse, it is negetive. We read from John Gill's Exposition of the whole Bible that "are to be understood in a spiritual, and not in a temporal sense, and of the persons, and not the posterity of Jacob and Esau."

Later, from the same person we find this explanation:

Esau is never said, nor can he with any propriety be said to be the brother of Jacob's posterity: it remains, that these words regard their persons, and express the true spring and source of the choice of the one, and the rejection of the other; and which holds true of all the instances of either kind: everlasting and unchangeable love is the true cause and spring of the choice of particular persons to eternal salvation; and hatred is the cause of rejection, by which is meant not positive hatred, which can only have for its object sin and sinners, or persons so considered; but negative hatred, which is God's will, not to give eternal life to some persons; and shows itself by a neglect of them, taking no notice of them, passing them by, when he chose others; so the word "hate" is used for neglect, taking no notice, where positive hatred cannot be thought to take place, in (Luke 14:26) .

This does well to consider the teaching of Christ htat we are to hate our fathers and mothers....not in a physical, negative sense, but spiritually, we are to place Christ above them....above all else that may demand of our devotion. If the love we have for our parents does not look like hatred compared to the love we have for our Lord, something is wrong. Our priorities are in the wrong place.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back on subject....

You are right, Jake. The preceeding verses are not dealing with salvation, but instead, they deal with God's mercy and ultimate "election" (there is that word again!).

 

Romans 7:9-11

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.  I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.  For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

Paul clearly states that he was ***alive*** apart from the law. Remember that the Jews had what was called the 'Age Of Accountability.' Jesus even observed this when he was 12 years old...did Luke include this by mistake or did God know that this was revelant to these type of discussions?

This could only be talking about innocence while a child because he had no knowledge of good or evil:

This is why I needed clarificatoni on this. I have a hard time understanding the Age of Accounability in reguards to God's mercy and grace. I should think that it is God's mercy and grace that extends to the little ones who die, for they know no better. Not until they have an understanding of the Law, will they be held accountable for their actions. Though, in my experience and a child and watching three younger brothers grow up, I also see that babies can be quite evil in and of themselves. They are selfish, abusive, and demanding. Unreasonably so at times! But they are still under the mercy of God and will spend eternity with Christ should He call them home at a very young age.

This is why I have a hard time. I see your point, but there is the other side to deal with as well.

And again I am drawn to Paul's Doxology!

Romans 11

33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!

      How unsearchable his judgments,

      and his paths beyond tracing out!

    34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?

      Or who has been his counselor?"

    35"Who has ever given to God,

      that God should repay him?"

    36For from him and through him and to him are all things.

Interesting topic at least!

~your servant in Christ

      To him be the glory forever! Amen.

[endure4salvation]

Yea, I guess there are a lot of things none of us will ever know, huh?

Yup, blessed be our Father, the God of all.

Bless you, Sagz--I love you brother.

[Guest cali]

Total Depravity, Do SIDS and aborted babies go to hell? I n response to this question. No , I don't think so! A just God, And with overabundance of mercy will not send anybody to eternal punishment without given the opportunity to choose. Some humans would not think twice to murder, rape, abort, molest a child, hang, cut, blow up, abort or exploit another human being, and this being that they are verily human beings with no supernatural power to expand the Universe with one hand, on the other hand God has all the power, with no one even beginning to comprehend, yet he loves us like the flowers of spring.

[Guest dove2]

Amen Cali.

[Guest shadow2b]

--TULIP

the "T" stands for Total Depravity.

duuuhhhhh??? i must be real dumb but you totally lost me on this one Bro.

could yuse PLEASE splain this "tulip" "T" stands fer total depravity duhhhhh????

thank yuse---Bro-----------totally lost{bout this tulip thang}----------Gary--

[endure4salvation]

--TULIP

the "T" stands for Total Depravity.

duuuhhhhh??? i must be real dumb but you totally lost me on this one Bro.

could yuse PLEASE splain this "tulip" "T" stands fer total depravity duhhhhh????

thank yuse---Bro-----------totally lost{bout this tulip thang}----------Gary--

I would be happy to. I will start a new thread, OK?

[godrulz]

Ya aint dum..it is a memory aid for the main points of Calvinism (and a flower)

T= Total depravity

U= Unconditional election

L= Limited atonement

I= Irresistible grace

P= Perseverance of the saints

These are interconnected and dependent. Conversely (Arminian; semi-Pelagian) believes that man is physically vs totally morally depraved; election is conditional on belief; the atonement was made and is effective for everyone who believes (not just the elect); grace is resistable due to free will; saints may fall away (not unconditional eternal security) and are not forced to endure to the end.