Total Depravity

[endure4salvation]

--endure--I visited the site----what i saw was a website that needs someone to teach them to "spell"---& not to condemn anyone & everyone that believes the gifts of "THE HOLY-SPIRIT" are for today--Yet their claims seem to convey the message that anyone who speaks in tongues are deceived & a demon is speaking thru them---------

----Whoever is typing all this up needs to get a dictionary & use it {often}---however they do expose the cults of hagin-copeland--hinn-rodney howard browne--the selling of {gift of the month}trinkets for "your monthly tithe--love-offering-etc--etc-etc---------

What comes thru this site "abundantly" is the hatred of ALL "pentecostals--charismatics"--calvanists------From some of your posts I have seen you quote them almost verbatim-------

Sorry , i just really don't want to fill my head with such vehement hatred.........

---I was filled with this type of hatred "before" the LORD SAVED US & i donot care to return to or visit that state again, it was a very lonely,suspicious, mean time & I trusted no-one at anytime for any reason......-----------------------Gary--

Please be aware that I only found this site by doing a search for dinosaurs and the Bible. I never said that I agree with all parts of the site--I don't.

But I am curious to see why you make this statement:

From some of your posts I have seen you quote them almost verbatim

Can you show me where, because I don't quote websites at all from my recollection.

And for the record, my favorite preacher is a Pentecostal and my favorite church is the one that my friend plays for--yes the same church...

http://www.lifepointministries.com/

Here is my friends band:

http://www.ironforclay.com/main.html

He is the old dude with the glasses. He is one of my great friends and I love him dearly.

[cheercoach]

Hi! I was just board browsing and liked what I saw here. This (salvation of children or childlike) was a question weighing on my mind as I have a daughter with cerebal palsey and a very low IQ. I don't know that I've learned anything from reading the posts on this issue, but I like how the people here communicate. One thing I do know - I did absolutely NOTHING to be saved. I only confessed Jesus AFTER God showed Him to me. It was like Paul's coversion. The Lord spoke to me and opened my eyes. I then knew Truth. I was changed. I desired to learn so I started listening to Christian radio where I heard that I needed to pray the "sinner's prayer", which I did, but I know that I was changed before that. I don't believe I was saved because I prayed the sinner's prayer. God just loved me and saved me. All I did was to be desperate. Before I was saved, I claimed to be an atheist. I had heard the Gospel and rejected it. I didn't change my mind - God did. From my experience, I hope in the fact that I received a gift that I didn't even ask for. So, why couldn't a baby or young child also receive the gift of salvation?

Thanks for all the great discussion on this topic. There are some great Scripture ref.s posted. GO TEAM GO ! !

[The Journey]

The verses used to 'prove' limited atonement include:

his sheep (John 10:11); his friends (John 15:13); "many" (Heb. 9:2)--'his' being Jesus of course!

This of course denies clear verses that say that God died for "the whole world" (John 3:16) and wants "all to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3).

Jake,

I am losing faith in your integrity.

A verse that has to be explained is Ephesians 1:4.

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will."

Here we have some difficult points:

1. He chose those who are saved.

2. He chose those to be adopted.

3. The choosing was according to his will.

I have noticed that the majority of your posts have been a systematic attack on calvanism. I do not like labels (I am nondenominational Bible Church) but these things seem clear to me.

#1 All are born with a sin nature.

#2 Both divine election to salvation and free will are presented as Truth in the Scriptures.

#3 Salvation is a free gift through faith alone.

#4 Because He chose me and gave me a new nature after the nature of Christ I cannot be unsaved. A believer's nature is fundamentally changed forever. Sin is now the enemy instead of the master.

Steve

[sagz4Christ]

Hi! I was just board browsing and liked what I saw here. This (salvation of children or childlike) was a question weighing on my mind as I have a daughter with cerebal palsey and a very low IQ. I don't know that I've learned anything from reading the posts on this issue, but I like how the people here communicate. One thing I do know - I did absolutely NOTHING to be saved. I only confessed Jesus AFTER God showed Him to me. It was like Paul's coversion. The Lord spoke to me and opened my eyes. I then knew Truth. I was changed. I desired to learn so I started listening to Christian radio where I heard that I needed to pray the "sinner's prayer", which I did, but I know that I was changed before that. I don't believe I was saved because I prayed the sinner's prayer. God just loved me and saved me. All I did was to be desperate. Before I was saved, I claimed to be an atheist. I had heard the Gospel and rejected it. I didn't change my mind - God did. From my experience, I hope in the fact that I received a gift that I didn't even ask for. So, why couldn't a baby or young child also receive the gift of salvation?

Thanks for all the great discussion on this topic. There are some great Scripture ref.s posted. GO TEAM GO ! !

Hello and welcome to Worthy Boards!

I pray your stay here is beneficial to your walk with Christ, and I want to thank you for your testimony.

I am sure you are aware though, that there are some that vehemently disagree with your position on salvation. What can I say, we are all humans! Anyway...I would like to know if you are scientifically minded in any way. Let me know! We may have need of you in another discussion going on right now.

~serving Christ in faith

[cheercoach]

Thanks for the welcome, Sagz. I think that you misunderstood me. I would tell others that to be saved, they must: believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; born of a virgin; died on a cross as penalty for our sins; was buried and after three days arose from the grave; is returning to judge the nations; provides atonement for our sin by His shed blood; is the only way to the Father. I was speaking only of my personal salvation experience. I was very much in a helpless state at the time as in comparison to a baby.

I don't know what you mean about being scientifically minded.

[godrulz]

Dr. Steve:

Is theology the king or queen of sciences? Is medicine the king or queen or sciences?

Sin is not a substance ('original sin') that is inherited. It is a wrong moral choice.

Colossians is primarily about the individual's relationship with Christ.

Ephesians is primarily about the Church's rel'n with Christ. Election is a generic corporate election to chose those who believe to become members of the Body of Christ, His church. It is not hand picking you and me and Billy Graham from trillions of years ago.

cf. Rom. 8:29 (call=invite)..corporate vs individual...this resonates with the tenure of Scripture...we both have preconceived theologies that understand election/predestination/foreknowledge differently.

[The Journey]

godrulz,

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."Psalms 51:5

"Election is a generic corporate election to chose those who believe to become members of the Body of Christ, His church."

uuuhhh what?

Respectfully, that statement makes no sense.

So basically what you are saying is that God chose all those who would believe because they had chosen to believe and thus were predestined to be members of the Body of Christ.

Much simpler to just say that election and free choice are paradoxes. Just like the Trinity and Virgin Birth and the Eucharist and the origin of evil....well you get the point.

I was chosen before the foundation of the world. I also have free will. Both are presented in Scripture as the Truth. I do not have any preconceived ideas on this doctrine. Both are true.

Steve

[The Journey]

Is theology the king or queen of sciences? Is medicine the king or queen or sciences?

godrulz,

WOW!!! now this is one of my favorite subjects!!!

I love to discuss the foundations of Western philosophy.

Any system of philosophy must have a solid base for epistemology. Nothing but theology can do that.

Steve

[godrulz]

Ps. 51:5 Hebraic figure of speech vs proof text for original sin (Psalms are not primarily doctrinal but poetic expressions).

Ps. 58:3 "Even from birth the wicked go astray..."

Have you seen a baby rob a bank?

Ps. 71:6 "From birth I have relied on you..."

Have you seen a newborn pray?

For all intents and purposes, it is as long as he could remember... ?metaphor vs literal teaching.

[The Journey]

OK well this is one doctrine that I would not go to the stake for (I owe Dr Dave Wyrtzen for this nice quip).

I mainly responded because Jake listed the supposed Scriptures that supported election and omitted some of the most important. I was just making the thread "fair and balanced" (sorry Fox)

Whatever mental hoops you have to jump through to keep your systematic theology together then go for it!!

Steve