Torture by Red Hot Chili Peppers

[dgolvach]

If they really want to extract valueable imformation they should make the terrorist listen to 'My Heart Will Go On". Celean Dion.

Over and over. They'll loosen their lips. I would.

Dan

[nebula]

It is just - in my opinion anyway - warfare should not, in any way include torture.

Buck -

You are missing the point.

The CIA wsn't torturing the guy just to make him miserable or take revenge. They were trying to make him talk.

It was the same with the photos that came out of the Abu-whatever prison. The purpose was to get them prisoners to release informatio that could help our effort and prevent more killings of innocents. Of course, these tactics were controversial and condemned by the world at large. (But in another thread, an article out of the UK revealed what the Iraqis are doing to the prisoners now that they have taken over, and the prisoners are begging for the Americans to return. Consider that!)

So, there was a lot of flack at what the CIA prisons were doing to the prisoners to get info out of them.

How do you get information out of a terrorist who doesn't want to talk? Be super nice to him? He'll walk all over you! Empty threats? He'll laugh at you. You have to be tough.

So, what they did was make him incredibly, incredibly uncomfortable - without harming his body - until he talks.

As it turned out, he gave away valuable info, as the report states.

So, Buck, how would you get information out of the guy?

[O'Dannyboy]

Some people react differently to different music, thats for sure. Some urbanites might dislike country music enough that they might be "uncomfortable" listening to it. Some "cowboys" might be somewhat uncomfortable listening to "gangsta rap". I know for me I could not listen to very much polka music before I would loose my mind. Also, I think if I had to listen to 30 minutes of what some middle easterners consider music, such as their calls to prayer, I might just be ready to cut someones head off as well. Just kidding. I know many, if not most, would consider being forced to listen to Rosanne Baar sing as cruel and unusual. I will say that standing in a cold room for an extended period might just weaken my resolve and is more than likely the cause of this particular person giving in.

I can see both sides of this argument and I am unable to choose one side over the other. I am sure many of us have heard of "chinese water torture". While this method is non-evasive and does not in any way physically harm the person, it is in fact considered torture. While I may agree that certain interrogation methods could and should be considered torture, I would not be as quick to ban them from use by interrogators. Though only a formality, I do believe that no person should be subjected to "interrogation" unless formally charged as an enemy of the United States. I do not believe, times as they are, the government needs to be in a state of war to declare a person an enemy of the state.

As far as I am concerned, the only reason our govenment is so secretive about such things is because there are people that simply do not have the stomach to do anything and everything necessary to protect the citizens of this nation. While it is unfortunate that people be subjected to environments, positions or conditions that are meant to make them uncomfortable and/or cause them anguish, fear or sorrow, we cannot afford to go soft on or in the face of our enemies. Consider Israel and see what even the apearance of weakness will get you. Go to a prison and ask what weakness (aka kindness and generousity) will get you. You would end up someones girlfriend or worse, someones sex slave as they pimped you out to other inmates for packs of cigarettes. I repeat, neither we or our allies can afford to be viewed as weak, passive or submissive in the face of such a violent, unforgiving and uncomprimising enemy.

[nebula]

Actually, the reason for secrecy is so that the terrorists do not know what we are doing, in which case they can prepare with countermeasures or avoidances.

As Pres. Bush said in his address earlier, it was clear these therrorists were trained to resist interregation methods, so they had to develop something unconventional. Pres. Bush didn't want to state what the approved measures were because then the terrorists could train to resist.

I wonder what this leak will do in that regards.

[WayneB]

I think it is less about the genre of music and more about the volume and intensity.

Most any music played loudly with a lot of bass can unnerve most folks in time.

Remember Panamanian general Manuel Noriega?

[O'Dannyboy]

Actually, the reason for secrecy is so that the terrorists do not know what we are doing, in which case they can prepare with countermeasures or avoidances.

As Pres. Bush said in his address earlier, it was clear these terrorists were trained to resist interregation methods, so they had to develop something unconventional. Pres. Bush didn't want to state what the approved measures were because then the terrorists could train to resist.

I wonder what this leak will do in that regards.

I agree, but there do need to be measures to ensure that those being subjected to such interrogations have been officially classified as enemies of the state. At this point I have to agree that there needs to be some sort of judicial process where such a declaration can be made as a safeguard against abuses and unecessary deviations from accepted protocols. The military tribunals being proposed are hardly acceptable as long as those tribunals fall under the command of the military itself. I think it is only prudent that those in a position to classify someone as an enemy of the state not be the same ones to carry out the interrogation.

[nebula]

Well, I would say that "Al Qaeda personnel director Abu Zubaydah" - whom the report states this was done to - qualifies as an enemy of the state!

Wouldn't you?

[Marnie]

To advocate torture, under any circumstances, means that "the enemy is winning" and has managed to reduce you to thinking like the lowest form of life there is. Torture takes many forms and I think what the article that Marnie provided was talking about was psychological torture. Things like this have often been used to "wear down" the prisoner, to "dehumanise" him. Torture is torture. And it is an extremely unreliable form of "getting someone to talk" because a person being tortured will often "say anything to make the pain stop". So, as you can see, it is quite ineffective and so "torturing one enemy combattant" would most definitely not "save the lives of American soldiers". And Marnie, I have to ask you: What do you see as "coercive interrogation"?

Anyway, the "Red hot chilli peppers'" music is torture. It is really awful. Barry Manilow is "not my cup of tea" but I wouldn't be chased from a shopping mall just because they were playing his music.

Again, I have to say that all of the above is just my opinion alone and I really apologise if I have misread anything anyone said.

First of all. Coercive interrogation IS NOT torture. Now, bamboo chutes under the fingernails, that's torture. Slicing and dicing a man's private parts, that's torture. Coercive interrogation is making a person physically uncomfortable, phsychologically confused and weary. It is not harming their bodies or doing permanent damage to their psyche. Sleep deprivation, loud music, cold rooms are all coercive means of inetrrogation.

Second. It is a misconception to say that information gained through coercive interrogation is unreliable. That is the typical comeback given by various "humanitarian" and anti torture groups. I can tell you, while I have never interrogated anybody this way, (some would say a first date with me is coercive interrogation, but I digress) I come from a military family and coercive interrogation has saved many lives according to what I have been told. And I would tend to believe a career military man as opposed to talking heads on CNN or the head of some anti war group who has never seen a gun.

Third. War is not for sissies. And I am afraid that, as I have observed before, Americans have no stomach for war. It doesn't fit into their clean, PC antiseptic world. War is the ugly side of the coin that allows all of us to enjoy the bright, shiny flip side of that same coin. We would prefer to think that our freedom and safety are rights and privileges we are born into. The reality, those freedoms we enjoy must continually be purchased for us, sometimes by war, sometimes through trade, sometimes through political manipulation. We live on the knife edge of losing them everyday.

Fourth. I hate war. I hate pain and killing. But I would rather see the enemy suffer than American soldiers or citizens. And if playing loud music day and night or forcing a muslim to shave can save one life, I say do it. Cause, you know, what they do to our men and women when they're captured or kidnapped is sick and perverse.

[LadyRaven]

Red Hot Chilli peppers is most definitely Not torture. It amazes me that The United States has forgotten how to win wars. Once upon a time, we were good at it. We have forgotten what works.

Well I remember when we surrounded some place down in South America and was playing AC/DC. That man's voice is close to being torturous...

Me personally, Brittany Spears would be more torturous than the RHCP. And that group that sang that "beep beep" song fromt the car commercial a few months ago. Argh!!

[LadyRaven]

Wouldn't "torture" by DNC Chair Howard Dean be much, much worse?

Yes!

Force them to watch Congress conduct an investigation of a judicial nominee, that should get them to talk. If not, we can have Ben Stine read something.