What happens to those without knowledge of Christ?

[jesusaveslives77]

Just wanted to pose this question. There appears to be much discussion on it from various sects.

I am interested in knowing what other Christian denoms/Christian religions, believe regarding those who have never had a knowledge of Christ. For instance, what about someone who has died without ever even hearing about Jesus Christ? Islamists, Hindus, and other peoples easily fall into this category. Seemingly, through no fault of their own, they have not heard the good news. Many are long passed from this world.

I was looking this information up on the Internet a few days ago and I never expected to see such a diverging thought in Christianity. I am fairly well versed on what Mormons believe here and now I know what the United Church of God believes on it, as I read their statement of beliefs.

Some apologists on the net say that these souls are just lost. What say ye?

grapeseed

We read in Hosea 4:6,

Edited October 26, 2006 by jesusaveslives77

[Smalcald]

No one can be saved without Christ, babies, people who have never heard of Christ, Muslims, whoever.

The bible claims that "no one is righteous NOT ONE". That includes everybody, and without that no one will be saved, except for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Now, the problem many are having is a formula notion of faith which limits the power of Christ and limits the Holy Spirit. I have never met a small child, who having been told the Gospel of Christ even in a very very simple way, does not love Jesus and believe in Jesus. In fact Christ holds little children up as the MODELS of faith we should be. Of course Christ will save these little babies, but He will come to them and they will believe.

He came to Paul a murderous man who made it his special practice to help capture and kill Christians; certainly He can come directly to every other human being who may not have heard of Christ.

But we do know that nobody will be saved because they are good people.

________________________________________________________________________________

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Now you are straining at the bit.

A parent who does not know Jesus or the gosple, especially one who would never even have heard of God or Jesus, or the gospel, how could they then pass on knowledge of either to their babies. We need to get real here and stop being childish about serious things. Would a Papuan Highlander, a head hunter, two thousand years ago, pass on the knowledge of God, the gosple, or Jesus Christ to his children? How about Pygmies in the Amazon about three thousand years ago?

Haz.

Who told the Gospel to Paul before he converted?

The man who wrote most of the New Testament was not converted by his parents sharing the Gospel, was not converted by hearing Peter or Stephen's preaching, in fact he heard them and raged against the believers, killing them. So how was he converted?

How was the pre-born child, John the Baptist who leapt in his mothers womb at the sight of Mary and the unborn Christ child, how was that unborn infant converted to belief and joy over being in the same room as Christ?

Christ will save who He wills to save, and all will have a choice to obey or not, just as Paul did. But we know that his or her own works will save no one. The works that a pygmy living in Africa 500 years ago did will not save him, anymore than the works we do will save us, he will be judged by his works indeed, and go to hell as any single sin, one spot of sin will send us and all humans to hell, unless Christ intervenes.

But we know indeed that Christ can and will come to people who have not heard of Him.

The point I am making is that works will save nobody, so we should not drift into heresy because we are worried about people who did not know Christ in this life. God is taking care of them, some will be with Christ some will not, but it will have nothing to do with their works. We must leave this works based theology behind, as Paul tells us in Galatians, those who attempt to be justified before God by their works have fallen from grace, this is very serious. I am relatively shocked that so many people are so confused that they think we are saved or that anybody can be saved outside of faith in Christ. Did He die in vain? Did He die for only the sinners, but us

[jackie d]

Can anyone show me where in the Bible is specifically and clearly states that those who never heard of Jesus are condemned to hell???

I'm not referring to those verses that say you must "believe" or "accept"....both those terms imply that you have already heard and must now make a decision.

Anyone?

F

I do not recall where it is written Fiosh but I recently read Jesus stating if they had not heard me witness these things they would not be guilty of sin. But they (I am assuming those who sought to kill him and did not believe He was the Christ) have heard the Truth and still do not believe therefore they are guilty of sin..I will keep looking and get the book and scripture.

blessings

Hi Jackie,

Are you thinking of this passage?...

Jhn 9:40 And [some] of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

or maybe this one?...

Jhn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Jhn 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

Jhn 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

There are still multitudes who do not know Jesus as Lord. They may have heard His name, but only in the context of their own belief system. (for ex. as "prophet").

How will God judge that young Muslim who has never left Iraq, and has only heard what Islam teaches???? What if he loves God with all his heart and desires to serve Him?

Peace,

Fiosh

Well there is a problem with your example....where does Christ fit into this picture. So the guy loves God and desires to serve Him..does the Muslim still only believe that Christ was just a prophet and not the messiah? Does this change the love he has for God?

The word is to be taught to every man and every nation. This Muslim that loves God with all of his heart and wants to serve Him has the ability at any time to make a decision to denounce his religion and turn to Christ. Even if it will get him killed in the process..Christians have been in Iraq and they have told the news of Christ. This man in Iraq is still Muslim therefore has not put the false teachings and false god aside and made a choice to turn to Christ..well then he is guilty.

I personally was speaking about those who might never have heard the news of Christ. If this is at all possible this day and age. And I found scriptures and posted them below the post I replied to you because I believe they are more fitting to the question of this thread..from Luke

Luke 12:47 "And that servant who knew his mater's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 "But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few,

For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed , of him they will ask the more.

Here Christ is again using a parable. In the parable it is stated that the servants knew what was required of them by their master but did not do it.

If someone is unaware (as unlikely as it would seem today) of God and Christ they most likely will be held accountable for wrong doing. Will they burn in Hell, it is not clear but it would seem that there is grace in their ignorance and perhaps they still would be permitted to heaven.

However, as we move through the bible I am of the understanding that no one will remain ignorant of Him, at some point or another salvational knowledge is gained. Even the dead will be judged at the end of the millennial kingdom. So all will face judgement. Degree would most likely be determined by knowledge of God and/or belief in Christ and acts (sin or no sin, repented or no repentance) of each individual.

Blessings

Edited October 26, 2006 by jackie d

[Smalcald]

So cardcaptor, we can have salvation outside of Christ?

Never. Neither have I ever implied this. I have stated that as part of our salvation in Christ we must adhere to the gospel that he brought us or we can forfeit our salvation because to not adhere is to transgress and transgression of the gospel is sin. We cannot be saved and live in sin at the same time. Our works are the obediences of the gospel. A work is when I repent of a sin. When i put away the works of the flesh which are sins.

If you believe that people by their own righteousness can be saved without Christ then I think you are implying that, or at least that is how I understood it. I think we were both misunderstood.

If a person has faith they will want to obey Jesus Christ who saves them and loves them, thus by faith they will not live in sin, they will not plan and revel in sin without remorse. A faith that is dead, is gone, dead is dead, and without the desire to obey Christ we don't have faith, it is dead. James is simply making that point. In that regard our works help us and strengthen our faith as a sign of having faith. But an intellectual belief in Jesus is not faith.

We must continually repent in our prayers as even those with faith will sin until they die. Christ Himself has told us to pray, "forgive us our trespasses", we can't ignore that. If we honestly believe that Christians don't sin, we may not ask for forgiveness when we do sin, and we all will, even after we are saved. But you don't believe that some Christians are sinless do you?

The main difference I would have with what you are saying is that I believe that scripture teaches that faith drives our works, but that these works themselves are not a part of salvation and not from us, "they are prepared by God for us to walk in" that it is "God who works in us both to will and to do" both to will and to do. We have no good inside of us and are dead, only faith can save us. The danger is taking away glory from Christ, thinking that my great shiny works have something to do with impressing God, which would be as Paul warns against in Galatians, attempting to be justified by works. Even our works are really not of our own doing as without Christ creating the desire to follow Him, we would simply veer toward the grave.

But you are right they will go together I agree.

[Smalcald]

There are so many errors I don't know where to begin.

Without faith none of your works mean anything, Galatians is about ALL attempts at self justification. Christ already saved us, IF we are saved if we believe that in the bottom of our hearts, indeed we will obey Him as best we can out of love and joy, not out of pride, not thinking that somehow these works of ours mean anything beyond an expression of love for Christ. As Paul specifically says, we are saved and made righteous totally separate from our works, for by our works we DIE, they will never be enough.

Works do not save us, they are simply a reflection of Christ working in us, or not. The reason this is important is that if you believe that somehow your efforts save you, you fall from grace as Paul specifically says. It is critical to realize that we don't deserve ANYTHING from God, that we are dirty sinners to the very end. God does not see our sin for one reason, for the sake of His Son and His sacrifice. If we believe that we are "partners" in that salvation we take away the sacrifice of Christ. It is the main theme of most of the New Testament. Is obedience important, it sure is and I think you have provided many versus that speak of the importance of obedience.

But once again, all people with true faith in Christ will please God, will seek to please God. Does an unrepentant gross sinner please God? No, so why would anyone who has true faith do that, the answer is they wouldn't.

[larryt]

I kind of got into this thread a bit late here, but from my viewpoint in having read the Bible several times..... Those people who have never heard the gospel are firmly placed into the loving hands of a most loving and just God who would never do anything unjust to anything or anyone.

So I don't dwell on the subject, for it's really none of my business...... and it might even be considered judging the Father Himself. Christanity is a personal walk with Jesus..... personal means between He and me..... He and you, and your walk with Him is none of my business. Your fruits in this life that would reflect on all our walks would be something to think aobut and discuss, but your walk with the Lord is just that..... your walk.

Hi Sam,

I know and believe that God is love(1John 4:8, 16). But how do you deal with verses like these.

Ps 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Enmity means hatred and in the context hatred of God. And all gentiles have no hope and are without God.

Sure looks like those that are not in Christ will be cast out into outer darkness.

One thing I do agree with you is that God is a just God. He would be perfectly just in casting everyone into hell if He so chose.

LT

[larryt]

Just wanted to pose this question. There appears to be much discussion on it from various sects.

I am interested in knowing what other Christian denoms/Christian religions, believe regarding those who have never had a knowledge of Christ. For instance, what about someone who has died without ever even hearing about Jesus Christ? Islamists, Hindus, and other peoples easily fall into this category. Seemingly, through no fault of their own, they have not heard the good news. Many are long passed from this world.

I was looking this information up on the Internet a few days ago and I never expected to see such a diverging thought in Christianity. I am fairly well versed on what Mormons believe here and now I know what the United Church of God believes on it, as I read their statement of beliefs.

Some apologists on the net say that these souls are just lost. What say ye?

grapeseed

We read in Hosea 4:6,

[Fiosh]

Just wanted to pose this question. There appears to be much discussion on it from various sects.

I am interested in knowing what other Christian denoms/Christian religions, believe regarding those who have never had a knowledge of Christ. For instance, what about someone who has died without ever even hearing about Jesus Christ? Islamists, Hindus, and other peoples easily fall into this category. Seemingly, through no fault of their own, they have not heard the good news. Many are long passed from this world.

I was looking this information up on the Internet a few days ago and I never expected to see such a diverging thought in Christianity. I am fairly well versed on what Mormons believe here and now I know what the United Church of God believes on it, as I read their statement of beliefs.

Some apologists on the net say that these souls are just lost. What say ye?

grapeseed

If you read those verses in the context of the entire book of Hosea, you will see that God is comparing Israel to an unfaithful wife----a wife who knew her husband but REJECTED HIM. It actually makes the opposite point from the one you are attempting to defend. God punishes rejection, not outright ignorance.

Peace,

F

We read in Hosea 4:6,

[Fiosh]

So cardcaptor, we can have salvation outside of Christ?

Never. Neither have I ever implied this. I have stated that as part of our salvation in Christ we must adhere to the gospel that he brought us or we can forfeit our salvation because to not adhere is to transgress and transgression of the gospel is sin. We cannot be saved and live in sin at the same time. Our works are the obediences of the gospel. A work is when I repent of a sin. When i put away the works of the flesh which are sins.

If you believe that people by their own righteousness can be saved without Christ then I think you are implying that, or at least that is how I understood it. I think we were both misunderstood.

If a person has faith they will want to obey Jesus Christ who saves them and loves them, thus by faith they will not live in sin, they will not plan and revel in sin without remorse. A faith that is dead, is gone, dead is dead, and without the desire to obey Christ we don't have faith, it is dead. James is simply making that point. In that regard our works help us and strengthen our faith as a sign of having faith. But an intellectual belief in Jesus is not faith.

We must continually repent in our prayers as even those with faith will sin until they die. Christ Himself has told us to pray, "forgive us our trespasses", we can't ignore that. If we honestly believe that Christians don't sin, we may not ask for forgiveness when we do sin, and we all will, even after we are saved. But you don't believe that some Christians are sinless do you?

The main difference I would have with what you are saying is that I believe that scripture teaches that faith drives our works, but that these works themselves are not a part of salvation and not from us, "they are prepared by God for us to walk in" that it is "God who works in us both to will and to do" both to will and to do. We have no good inside of us and are dead, only faith can save us. The danger is taking away glory from Christ, thinking that my great shiny works have something to do with impressing God, which would be as Paul warns against in Galatians, attempting to be justified by works. Even our works are really not of our own doing as without Christ creating the desire to follow Him, we would simply veer toward the grave.

But you are right they will go together I agree.

I don't think anyone is arguing that works alone can save us. All who are saved, are saved by the cross. But Jesus makes is quite clear what he expects from us in Matthew 25: 31-46.

He's quite serious.

Faith alone will not save you. And works are not merely a sign of faith. They are a conscious choice to take up your cross and follow Jesus wherever He leads. You are confusing faith with committed relationship. As they say, even Satan believes Jesus is God. We are called to put our faith into action.

And I certainly don't think that my "shiny works" impress God. I am but a slave who should do my Master's bidding with no expectation of reward.

Peace,

f

[irishcowboy]

You know, one thing I am sure of is this. Jesus Christ died for every man woman and child who accepts Him and His sacrifice for them. He also paid the death penalty for those who had never heard of Him, God the Father, or God the Holy Ghost, or the gospel, as long as they have, lived the good life on the basis of the light they have recieved and followed and obeyed their own conscience regarding good and evil in the society and in the age in which they lived. Romans 2:12-16 is very clear on this.

You see, Paul stated in Romans 2:12-16 that God will do the right thing by EVERY MAN according to the light he has recieved. Paul said, "For as many as have sinned WITH OUT LAW SHALL ALSO PERISH WITH OUT LAW: and as many as have sinned IN THE LAW SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW; (For not the hearers of the law are JUST BEFORE GOD BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW shall be justified. People who have never heard fo God, but who do the right thing in their society, and in the time they lived on the Earth shall be judged accordingly. For when the Gentiles which have NOT THE LAW, do BY NATURE the things contained in the law, these HAVING NOT THE LAW, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCE ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge THE SECRETS OF MEN BY JESUS CHRIST ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL!

Praise God for ever more, He is a Just and merciful God!

Haz.

and Christ said....... that there is only one way to the Father, and that is through the Son.... not mohomad, not buddah, not dali lama, not joe smith, not anyone but the SON..................

it is also written that it is not by works a man can get to Heaven,

yes, their conscience will help guide them, but with out Christ, they are lost......

as far as society, there is one rule that would not hold up in the Court of God, and that is what one sect follow and that is "If it doesn't hurt anyone, then it is ok" cheating on ones spouse may not hurt the spouse, should they never find out about it, does that make it right????

not according to the Word of God... even looking upon another with lust (who does that hurt).....

there are many rules of the lands that do not line up with the rules of God.... just cause it is legal, dont make it right....

Those with out Christ, do not see the first Resurrection..... those with out Christ have not accepted the Gift of Salvation, it has been offered, they are not accepting it, no matter how they live.......

if that was the way it would be, then why did Christ come to Earth??? if i could do good, and get to Heaven, then I would not need Christ..... but the thing is, NO ONE IS GOOD..... SAVE THE FATHER....... so, we all need to accept what has been offered to get into the Kingdom of Heaven...... the Free Gift of Salvation... we must accept it to have it, it is presented before us, for us to accept.....

just like if some one came to your house and offered you a birthday present..... you have a choice to make, to either reject it, or receive it... if you shut the dooor, you have not said you reject it, but your actions have shown that.....

The Gosple of Jesus Christ is being offered up in EVERY COUNTRY on this earth..... it is up to the people to accept the gift..... if they do not, they will be lost..... flat, cut, and dried..... no if's, and's or butttts about it

mike