The coming Messiah

[OneAccord]

I also think that Matthew 24 "could" be a local prophecy for Israel alone instead of the entire world.

but having said that I also think that it's possible for a future fulfillment as well.

I've heard this one before, that Matthew 24 was for the Jews of that time, but I am inclined to disagree because of verse 29:

immediately after the tribulation of those days........and then the coming of the Son of Man scriptures, which obviously didn't happen yet.

I also don't think that the tribulation that the Jews experienced in 70AD, horrid as it was, was the greatest tribualtion ever seen since the beginning of the world.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod,

I also think that Matthew 24 "could" be a local prophecy for Israel alone instead of the entire world.

but having said that I also think that it's possible for a future fulfillment as well. You mention that "we" are the Temple and that is correct but those outside of the faith might not agree and decide to build a Temple anyway.

Oh, I've been around, just not posting quite as much.

I agree with OA about a "local prophecy" for the reasons he gave.

Romans 11 tells me that God is ALWAYS interested in what the Jews are doing, after all His Son came "to save His people from their sins", and I don't believe Jesus' "agenda" has changed much from those days, except to include the gentiles. I say this because the rebuilding of the Temple is of such great importance to Judaism, that most certainly somewhere in the NT it would be mentioned that at some time future, it would be rebuilt - BUT YOU WON'T FIND IT.

I believe a big hang up so many people have is understanding that the LAST DAYS "abomination that causes desolation" is actually a SPIRIT of the evil one that comes against the CHURCH and leads it astray with all sorts of abominations and demonstrated with many miracles. A "false prophet" shall arise during those days who will be the one to lead the CHURCH into departing from the truth. He will have all the power of the "Evil One". If you read what is said about the "antichrist", you will recognize that what is being spoken of there is A SPIRIT, not a person. Many can have the same SPIRIT, but many cannot have an evil man living inside of them.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Brad]

Greetings Yod,

I also think that Matthew 24 "could" be a local prophecy for Israel alone instead of the entire world.

but having said that I also think that it's possible for a future fulfillment as well. You mention that "we" are the Temple and that is correct but those outside of the faith might not agree and decide to build a Temple anyway.

Oh, I've been around, just not posting quite as much.

I agree with OA about a "local prophecy" for the reasons he gave.

Romans 11 tells me that God is ALWAYS interested in what the Jews are doing, after all His Son came "to save His people from their sins", and I don't believe Jesus' "agenda" has changed much from those days, except to include the gentiles. I say this because the rebuilding of the Temple is of such great importance to Judaism, that most certainly somewhere in the NT it would be mentioned that at some time future, it would be rebuilt - BUT YOU WON'T FIND IT.

I believe a big hang up so many people have is understanding that the LAST DAYS "abomination that causes desolation" is actually a SPIRIT of the evil one that comes against the CHURCH and leads it astray with all sorts of abominations and demonstrated with many miracles. A "false prophet" shall arise during those days who will be the one to lead the CHURCH into departing from the truth. He will have all the power of the "Evil One". If you read what is said about the "antichrist", you will recognize that what is being spoken of there is A SPIRIT, not a person. Many can have the same SPIRIT, but many cannot have an evil man living inside of them.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

I agree with you Dad Ernie What was local and literal in the begining becomes worldwide and spiritual for a fulfillment. I believe that the coming of the Lord will also be worldwide and spiritual through those who overcome. In other words the Lord returns and manifests Himself through Sons of God by His Spirit. For two thousand years the Church has been beaten and torn. Now it is time for it to raise up and manifest the full authority that Jesus Christ has as King of kings and Lord of lords.

When we look at each other we should be able to see "Spiritually" Jesus Christ in each and everyone, but when we walk in the flesh the man of sin is beening revealed and he has to be taking out of the way before Jesus can be seen. This is why only those who overcome recieve a reward and that reward is Jesus Christ manifesting Himself through them.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Brad,

When we look at each other we should be able to see "Spiritually" Jesus Christ in each and everyone, but when we walk in the flesh the man of sin is beening revealed and he has to be taking out of the way before Jesus can be seen. This is why only those who overcome recieve a reward and that reward is Jesus Christ manifesting Himself through them.

I had never heard it put that way before - very interesting. I will have to look at those verses again. Off the top of my head, I have always related the "man of sin" with the False Prophet of Revelation. But that doesn't preclude what you say - you may very well be right. Thank you.

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

I say this because the rebuilding of the Temple is of such great importance to Judaism, that most certainly somewhere in the NT it would be mentioned that at some time future, it would be rebuilt - BUT YOU WON'T FIND IT.

Is Jesus not in the NT?

Yeshua mentions someone standing in the holy place and then refers to Daniel. The disciples understood exactly what He meant because the fulfillment of Daniel 11 had happened just 150 years earlier. They knew that this can only be done in the Temple.

The discussion here is whether that has another fulfillment after the year 70 AD. For the record, I think it does...but that most of Matthew 24 is about the past.

I believe a big hang up so many people have is understanding that the LAST DAYS "abomination that causes desolation" is actually a SPIRIT of the evil one that comes against the CHURCH and leads it astray with all sorts of abominations and demonstrated with many miracles. A "false prophet" shall arise during those days who will be the one to lead the CHURCH into departing from the truth.

Dad Ernie

and how will he do that? By spiritualizing the Bible to mean something it doesn't say...

I agree with you Dad Ernie What was local and literal in the begining becomes worldwide and spiritual for a fulfillment. I believe that the coming of the Lord will also be worldwide and spiritual through those who overcome.

Then we are in big trouble. Shouldn't the world should be getting better all the time? When does the great apostasy happen? what do you do with the verse that says the anti-christ shall be given power to overcome the saints?

I also don't think that the tribulation that the Jews experienced in 70AD, horrid as it was, was the greatest tribualtion ever seen since the beginning of the world.

I suppose that depends on your perspective. If this was a "local" fulfillment and you were jewish, it was. The nation was destroyed, the Temple was destroyed, and 2/3 of the people were killed while most of the rest were exiled for 2,000 years.

I don't think it's too absurd to say that almost all of Matthew 24 was already fulfilled. After all, Yeshua is telling the disciples all of this in the context of verse 2 which is about the destruction of the Temple. When did that happen? In the year 70 AD.....and it happened exactly as Matthew 24 reports in advance.

Yes, I agree that at some point He goes into the telling of the "end of the age" (verse 23ish?)

I'm only saying that not all of Matthew 24 is necessarily meant for us. Could there be another fulfillment? Sure, why not? I'm only pointing out that most of it has already happened. This is also how the remnant of jewish believers were spared because they believed the same thing when they saw this happening and headed for Petra.

Dad, with all due respect, that spiritualizing of the Temple is a dangerous idea. It opens the door for the spiritualizing of Yeshua's literal return as the previous post has shown. I would like to point out that neither the prophets or Yeshua spiritualized the Word when interpreting prophecies.

They always took them as literal when it was written as literal. The ancient rabbis teach that there are 4 levels of interpretation for every verse and the application of the spiritual is the second.....after the literal.....but without a literal interpretation there are just no rules for the spiritual.

That's how the anti-christ will fool "even the elect".

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Yod,

Dad, with all due respect, that spiritualizing of the Temple is a dangerous idea. It opens the door for the spiritualizing of Yeshua's literal return as the previous post has shown. I would like to point out that neither the prophets or Yeshua spiritualized the Word when interpreting prophecies.

I can assure you, I am very much a literalist, and sorry to say, I am worried about you.

If you will read Daniel 9:27 carefully, the temple will remain desolate until the consummation. Do you realize when that is? I'll let you give it some thought.

Also, if you examine the word temple in the NT, you will find TWO Greek words translated temple. The first being the PHYSICAL temple with all its buildings, walls, utencils and all that is according to pattern as it was given to Solomon. This word is Hieron.

Then we have Naos. Please look up this word. Christ's body is Naos. The church and each member is Naos. The only temple mentioned in Revelation is Naos - NEVER Hieron.

If there were to be a rebuilding of the "physical temple" (Hieron), don't you think at least one of the disciples would have mentioned it since it would hold such an important place in the future of Israel?

Please re-examine these things, as you currently hold to a false doctrine that is NOT taught in the scriptures.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest idolsmasher]

I agree with DE that one of the end time deceptions is the belief in a restored physical kingdom of the Jews. That was the mistake the Jewish leaders made the first time around and they still hold to this misconception. I do believe Christ will establish His kingdom and millenial rule, but not one that favours Jews or restores a physical temple and temple worship. God was even reluctant to allow them the first temple and states that He does not live in temples made with hands. Christ's kingdom will be a kingdom of all the saved, a spiritual kingdom which will physically and spiritually rule the earth with the temple being our hearts. You and I are the temple that God desires to dwell in.

[RGR]

Why would the Jews NOT want to have a temple? Of course there are among the Jews many that are not concerned with religion and don't care, but there is that core conservative group of Jewish people whose ultimate goal it is to restore a temple to Israel. This doesn't mean that it will happen, but seems very plausible to me. The scenario of the Antichrist taking over a newly built temple would fit very well in line with what Satan attempts to do-misuse anything of God and defile it. He destroyed the last temple and he is just waiting to do the same with a new one.

[Guest yod]

I do believe Christ will establish His kingdom and millenial rule, but not one that favours Jews

really? I'm so surprised....

[RGR]

I do believe Christ will establish His kingdom and millenial rule, but not one that favours Jews

really? I'm so surprised....

LOL!!!