Ask a Catholic

[Fiosh]

3. Excommunication. Actually, this is a Biblical teaching. The Bible clearly states that if a brother is living in sin, we should confront him. If he won't listen, the Church should deal with him. If he won't listen to the Church, we should not allow him to worship with us.

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

In truth, the RCC rarely excommunicates a member. It should probably be done more often.

Peace,

Fiosh

Thanks for your reply and answers, but as far as the excamunication, I have got to say that though I realize that this is a biblical stand point, that still does not seem to help me. Seeing that those I have known have not been dealt with in the biblical at but, more of a you are living in sin therefore you can not worship here anymore. It's very abrupt. Yes if a person is living in sin then it is our jobs as believers in Christ to bring that to there attention, but never to cut them off. I truely believe that is for the Holy Spirit to deal with them on that if they refuse to listen to a brother.

[Fiosh]

Grace to you,

QUOTE(Matthitjah @ Dec 25 2006, 11:15 AM)

Grace to you,

QUOTE

through the sacrament of penance not only are sins forgiven, but graces are obtained.

So Grace is something that can be attained or merited by ones own efforts?

Peace,

Dave

Greetings Dave,

Grace, by definition, is unmerited. Grace is made available thru the Sacrament of Reconciliation, instituted by Jesus. The gift is offered. We must choose to accept it by receiving the Sacrament.

Peace to you,

Fiosh

Good answer sister, however this is not what the Poster was saying at all.

He is saying, and now you are joining him, in saying that the Sacraments of the Catholic Church Save.

Please give me Scripture pointing to this. Not Doctrine, Scripture.

He is saying that through penance, Grace is Obtained.

Yet my Bible says that Jesus Christ's Sacrifice was once and for all satisfying to God. He has obtained Grace for me, I need only accept it.

Peace,

Dave

Nope, I'm not saying "that the Sacraments of the Catholic Church Save". The RCC teaches that we are saved thru the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. What I am saying is that one way that Jesus makes grace available to us is thru the sacraments. (it's very late and I'm beat...I'll get the Scripture references for you tomorrow)

Peace,

F

[Fiosh]

I think that is a once saved always saved point of view. Isn't it the teachings of the Catholic Church that one must be continually repentant. Otherwise, one is saved by grace, but one can at anypoint turn away from God.

It is my understanding that the Sacraments even in the Catholic Church are not what save you. Instead, they are ways that which Christians recieve the grace of God. However, even Catholics teach that one can be saved even if they are never baptized or take communion.

It is my understanding that to Catholics (just like Orthodox Christians, Anglicans, and Lutherans), Sacraments are defined as "Outward and visible signs of inward and spiritual grace, given by Christ as sure and certain means by which we receive that grace."

I am sure their are lots of Catholics on here, so correct me if I am wrong with this.

Yes, that is correct. More specifically, a Sacrament is.......

" An efficacious sign of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us through the work of the Holy Spirit".

[Fiosh]

Good Evening,

A thought just occurred to me.

There is a tend going on here. Only certain verses are taken literally. Verses such as John 20:22-23 and the like. Christ says, "I give you the power to forgive sins" and that is taken as literally Priests can forgive sins. I suppose that the current day priests are considered apostles? I am uncertain as to their lineage from the NT apostles to today. OR how they have any more authority to forgive than I do.

The body and blood of Christ verses you cite to support that are always taken literally. Christ says, "this is my body, this is my blood" and you take it completely literally. Matthew 26:26-28 etc.

Yet, when someone gives you verses about other issues, such as Mary's virginity and verses on idolatry, you say it was figurative?

Mary's other children. Mark 3:31-35; Mark 6:3-4; John 7:5 Each of these verses speaks of Christ's Mother, brothers and even sisters. How is that not taken literally?

Graven image, which by the way, is defined as an idol, or fetish, used in worship. I am certain that there are idols used in worship in churches. Bowing to an idol seems to be worship to me. Giving flowers to an idol is an act of worship. [i only speak of practices I have seen Catholic relatives use] Yet Gods word clearly states that idol worship is a sin. Literally. There were no idols in the Temple of the Lord.

Does not our Lord's word also say it is wrong to add to or take away from His word? Let Scripture interpret Scripture, not any man made books.

And, as always, take scripture from context, not out of context. Matthew 18:18 is directly related to a person who sins against YOU, personally. Matthew 18:15-20 "If a brother sins against you". That is not a reference to going to the church to confess sins. In fact, Matthew 18:12-14 says if a shepherd [pastor] has one lost sheep he will leave the rest to go find that one lost one. In both of these examples Christ tells of someone going to the fallen to correct them, not the other way around.

In His Mighty Grip,

Bib

Hi Bib,

Re: priests

Catholic priests can trace their priestly anointing back to the Apostles. There is an unbroken line passed on from generation to generation. In the New Testament, you will find reference to the Apostles appointing successors by "laying on of hands". This is the basis for the Catholic priesthood.......and it is why they have more authority to forgive than you do.

RE: Jesus' "brothers"

The Greek word used for "brother" ---adelphos---as several meanings. We use the definition meaning close relative, friend, or Christian brother. That IS taking the word literally. Check it out for yourself in Strong's!

RE: idols

The RCC forbids idol worship. No one worships statues in my church. I give flowers to my mother---that doesn't mean I'm worshiping her.

RE: adding to Scripture

Using other sources to help you to understand Scripture and the practices of the Church is NOT "adding to Scripture" any more than using a study Bible or commentaries is.

RE: context

Yep!

John 20: 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. 13 The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Peace,

F

[Guest liarsandmartyrs]

Fiosh,

I still do not agree with Catholicism, and I'm sure never will, but I have got to tip my hat to you. You have endured this thread for quite awhile, and have answered every single question asked without getting upset in your posts, or jabbing at anyone. By what I have seen on this thread alone, and believe me when I say that you have left yourself open to be scorned in this thread, you have come through with pure Christian traits. Praise be to God! May the peace of Christ always continue to be upon you my brother.

Edited December 26, 2006 by liarsandmartyrs

[Fiosh]

I pray to God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit as one. This is my way of communicating with Jesus. Now you say that you ask Mary to pray for you, you request Mary to have Jesus bless you. You defend this as saying it's just as asking a priest or a rabbi to pray for you. Here is where i've got a problem:

How do you communicate with the dead?

The only definition for prayer that i can find is "expressing yourself to a deity" or "communicating with God" and such forth. Now if you are communicating to the dead through prayer, are you saying that Mary is a deity/God? How do the dead hear you? This sounds a little bit like witchcraft to me...

Now you may say, well Mary is alive in Christ. That dosn't excuse the matter that Mary is physically dead, and hopefully we can agree that Mary is not a God, and not a "ghost" or "wandering spirit".

On the other hand, if you do not communicate to Mary by prayer, maybe you just talk to yourself, or shout to thin air?

(sorry if i strayed into sarcasm a bit there, just trying to add emphasis)

Hi Oblix,

Thanks for your questions.

You are absolutely right...Mary is NOT a diety/God.

Just like you, I pray to the one, true God in Three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I also ask family and friends to pray for me; and I often pray for others, including those here at WB.

I believe that when I die I will see God face to face---I will be in the Presence of Jesus. I believe the same of Mary, the mother of Jesus. So I have no problem asking her to pray for me. Nothing spooky about it.

As C.S. Lewis once said: "You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body".

Peace,

Fiosh

I'm sorry if i wasn't clear, thanks for trying to answer my question.

How do you ask Mary to pray for you without praying to her? Write notes? Just think it and she'll hear you? Talk and she'll hear you?

Thanks

I talk to her just like I talk to you.

you talk to her in person and or over the internet? you realize she is physically dead right? I am physically alive, there is a difference. So are you saying you just talk out loud and she will hear you? Does she hear everything you say?

What I realize is that we are spirit and will never die but live forever in Christ. So, yeah, I just talk out loud or in my heart, and she hears me. ( No, I don't normally use the Internet to talk to Mary. I meant "you" in the general sense)

So do you believe you can communicate to George Washington (assuming he believes in Jesus) just by talking out loud? The only way i can communicate to Jesus is by praying, I cannot communicate to the dead. You know my friend thinks he can communicate to the dead by putting some stones and candles on the ground. I call him a lunatic pagan.

I believe that the saints in heaven are aware of the spiritual battle we are fighting here on earth, to the extent that God allows it.

Hebrews 12:1-2

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us

while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the leader and perfecter of faith.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Fiosh]

Fiosh,

I still do not agree with Catholicism, and I'm sure never will, but I have got to tip my hat to you. You have endured this thread for quite awhile, and have answered every single question asked without getting upset in your posts, or jabbing at anyone. By what I have seen on this thread alone, and believe me when I say that you have left yourself open to be scorned in this thread, you have come through with pure Christian traits. Praise be to God! May the peace of Christ always continue to be upon you my brother.

Thank you, my brother. Yours words have truly touched me. I try not to be offended by those who disagree with my Catholic beliefs because I know that most of those here at WB do so out of love.

My only goal here is to promote some understanding of what the RCC teaches and dispel the myths, in an effort to do my tiny part to move us closer to becoming one Body.......as Jesus prayed.

Peace,

Your sister in Christ

Fiosh

[MeCajunboy]

Greetings brothers and sisters in Christ,

My intent with this thread is NOT to proselytize or convert.

Simply put, I wish to offer accurate information concerning the teaching of the RCC in order to promote understanding.

Many times here at WB I've seen gross misrepresentations of what I supposedly believe as a Catholic Christian.

I certainly can understand that many of you disagree with the RCC, and I respect your opinion. But I would at least like to offer you the opportunity to disagree with the actual doctrines of the RCC and not what others claim them to be.

All resident Catholics are invited to respond to the questions. But, I would ask several things:

1. NO personal OPINIONS. Respond with verifiable info from the Catechism, Vatican II docs, Early Church Fathers and other approved RCC sources.

2. NO apologetics. I refuse to argue "right or wrong" on this thread. If anyone desires to discuss any particular doctrine, start a new thread and I'll gladly meet you there.

3. NO bashing from either side. Can we keep it friendly?

I will ask the mods to delete any post from either "camp", including my own, that is not presented in a Christian manner.

I have no ulterior motive. Jesus prayed that we all be one. It truly saddens me that we are often so far apart. Yet, I will not compromise what I believe; and I don't expect you do compromise your beliefs. But maybe we can come to at least recognize that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, trying to follow and serve Him with sincere hearts.

If the mods won't allow this discussion, I'll respect that. I only ask that they prayerfully consider it, as I have done.

So..............

Go ahead, ask any question you like about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

Peace,

Fiosh

Where and when did we acquire the extra books of the Bible that the KJV Bible does not carry and other denominations do not seem to agree with or folloow?

Where in the KJV Bible are we told to pray to other saints, as well as The Lord God through Jesus Christ? Where we required to do our Roman Catholic Mass in Latin in earlier years and why? And why did that change if we were required so? Same with not eating meats on Friday? Was it Law and Why did it change...There are probably many more that you remember that I don't but these are the things that have led many Roman Catholics away or partly from the Church...As I know that our church as provided as much good for our faith and our world that many are not aware of, I am grateful for those things. But you must admit, much of our religion was considered Taboo, to some degree in the ways that they taught. (Ex: We were not encouraged to study the KJV Bible until recent years , when the church finally realized that far too many were doing it on their own. ) (The Catholic Church seems to put more emphasis in the Blessed Virgin Mary for prayertime than it does to the Lord God himself?) We all need to realize that this is not proper. I do realize that we need to give recognition to Mary for her works and obedience, but in any given church one might find more statues and emphasis on Mary and other saints than The Lord God himself.....( I attended a mass several years ago, and while the local priest was doing his sermon, he mentioned that he had seen many parishoners at the local casino here in Louisiana, and noted that he didn't see any great problem with people gambling as long as they "KNEW WHEN TO STOP!") Why does there seem to be so many variations of beliefs even in the Priesthood? What gave that man the right to make that comment when his very spirit should have told him the opposite? Just a few questions that need answers for my part. Please note that I'm still a practicing Catholic, but when I hear sermons like this, and I have heard quite a few that bother my spirit, I simply walk out and go home; open my Bible and Pray alone!

Blessings

Cajunboy

[forrestkc]

Greetings brothers and sisters in Christ,

My intent with this thread is NOT to proselytize or convert.

Simply put, I wish to offer accurate information concerning the teaching of the RCC in order to promote understanding.

Many times here at WB I've seen gross misrepresentations of what I supposedly believe as a Catholic Christian.

I certainly can understand that many of you disagree with the RCC, and I respect your opinion. But I would at least like to offer you the opportunity to disagree with the actual doctrines of the RCC and not what others claim them to be.

All resident Catholics are invited to respond to the questions. But, I would ask several things:

1. NO personal OPINIONS. Respond with verifiable info from the Catechism, Vatican II docs, Early Church Fathers and other approved RCC sources.

2. NO apologetics. I refuse to argue "right or wrong" on this thread. If anyone desires to discuss any particular doctrine, start a new thread and I'll gladly meet you there.

3. NO bashing from either side. Can we keep it friendly?

I will ask the mods to delete any post from either "camp", including my own, that is not presented in a Christian manner.

I have no ulterior motive. Jesus prayed that we all be one. It truly saddens me that we are often so far apart. Yet, I will not compromise what I believe; and I don't expect you do compromise your beliefs. But maybe we can come to at least recognize that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, trying to follow and serve Him with sincere hearts.

If the mods won't allow this discussion, I'll respect that. I only ask that they prayerfully consider it, as I have done.

So..............

Go ahead, ask any question you like about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

Peace,

Fiosh

Where and when did we acquire the extra books of the Bible that the KJV Bible does not carry and other denominations do not seem to agree with or folloow?

Where in the KJV Bible are we told to pray to other saints, as well as The Lord God through Jesus Christ? Where we required to do our Roman Catholic Mass in Latin in earlier years and why? And why did that change if we were required so? Same with not eating meats on Friday? Was it Law and Why did it change...There are probably many more that you remember that I don't but these are the things that have led many Roman Catholics away or partly from the Church...As I know that our church as provided as much good for our faith and our world that many are not aware of, I am grateful for those things. But you must admit, much of our religion was considered Taboo, to some degree in the ways that they taught. (Ex: We were not encouraged to study the KJV Bible until recent years , when the church finally realized that far too many were doing it on their own. ) (The Catholic Church seems to put more emphasis in the Blessed Virgin Mary for prayertime than it does to the Lord God himself?) We all need to realize that this is not proper. I do realize that we need to give recognition to Mary for her works and obedience, but in any given church one might find more statues and emphasis on Mary and other saints than The Lord God himself.....( I attended a mass several years ago, and while the local priest was doing his sermon, he mentioned that he had seen many parishoners at the local casino here in Louisiana, and noted that he didn't see any great problem with people gambling as long as they "KNEW WHEN TO STOP!") Why does there seem to be so many variations of beliefs even in the Priesthood? What gave that man the right to make that comment when his very spirit should have told him the opposite? Just a few questions that need answers for my part. Please note that I'm still a practicing Catholic, but when I hear sermons like this, and I have heard quite a few that bother my spirit, I simply walk out and go home; open my Bible and Pray alone!

Blessings

Cajunboy

One thing to add is that the original KJV Bible contained the Apocrophia.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

What I am saying is that one way that Jesus makes grace available to us is thru the sacraments.

According to whom? On who's Authority?

Sister,

I have to agree that you answer with Grace.

I have no desire to wade too deeply here. I do have a desire to create deep thought.

I also saw where you responded that the Priests of the Catholic Church are the direct heir apparents to the Apostles. Handed down by the laying on of hands, etc.

Do you think that these heir apparents can be removed because of sin?

Secondly you also frequently answer that certain practices that are common in the RCC are not the practices of the True RCC and that they should be discounted overall.

How should the RCC deal with these wayward practitioners? Also are these particular Priests still heir apparents of the Apostles due to the laying on of hands, their practices, etc.?

Sorry, I Love to ask questions. It creates thought which brings reflection.

Peace,

Dave