Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[khalou]

A Curiously Good Question!

{I was talking about Abraham, David, Moses, Noah, people like that. None of them had ever heard of a devil or hell.}

So Curiosity Checks The Book~

David and Israel Learn From Their Bible!

Devil

"And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations."

(Leviticus 17:7 )

And, From David's Life:

Devil

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

(1 Chronicles 21:1 )

Davis speaks to God!

Hell

"And David spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD had delivered him out of the hand of all his enemies, and out of the hand of Saul:"

(2 Samuel 22:1 )

"The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;"

(2 Samuel 22:6 )

Moses Speaks about The Devil and about Hell to all Israel!

Devil

"And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended."

(Deuteronomy 31:30 )

"They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not."

(Deuteronomy 32:17 )

Hell

"And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended."

(Deuteronomy 31:30 )

"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

(Deuteronomy 32:22 )

{None of them had ever heard of a devil or hell.}

The secret to The Truth is no secret!

"But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul."

(Deuteronomy 4:29 )

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."

(Jeremiah 29:13 )

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

(Matthew 7:7-8 )

Love, Joe

None of this is evidence that they believed in the fallen angel, Lucifer, or hell or demons as minions of Lucifer.

I'll reply in more detail tonight.

k

[Floatingaxe]

None of this is evidence that they believed in the fallen angel, Lucifer, or hell or demons as minions of Lucifer.

I'll reply in more detail tonight.

I am waiting with bated breath!

[ayin jade]

But here is a link (NOT to an anti-Christian site!) but to an article that summarizes what Biblical Scholars have determined about the early Christian factions, and why. It has NOTHING TO DO with harming Christianity. It is simply more information about it.

Not a good link. It contains links to other articles that call Him a myth.

[Ovedya]

Khalou, you lack a few facts here. For someone who claims to be educated on the subject of God, you are out of touch on many things.

Paul's writings were probably written before the gospels. I could be wrong about that, but it makes sense. Paul didn't refer to the life of Jesus at all- no details. None of the parables, none of the stories, nothing about the ministry.

The purpose of Pauls writings isnt to discuss the life of Christ, but the life of a believer in Christ. What we are supposed to do to follow Him. What we are to believe about the meaning of the life and death and resurrection of Jesus. Paul writes about Jesus many times. He discusses His death and resurrection in many passages.

1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

See, Paul refers to the crucifixion of Jesus here. But Paul wasnt meant to tell the events the way the gospel tells it. Paul's purpose was to teach the new believers what being Christian is about. Living for Him. How to live the life of a believer. Just as important as the gospel accounts of Jesus, we need to understand what it all means. That is the purpose of Paul's writings, as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I'm still wondering what you have to say about this hitting your intellectual perusal, K.

Paul never met Jesus. Matter of fact, Paul had some serious conflicts with Peter (the rock on whom Jesus would build His church) and James in Jerusalem. The Romans destroyed that organization at Jerusalem, which left Paul to continue carefully, not to make the Romans angry. (PURE speculation on my part)

But here is a link (NOT to an anti-Christian site!) but to an article that summarizes what Biblical Scholars have determined about the early Christian factions, and why. It has NOTHING TO DO with harming Christianity. It is simply more information about it.

k

The article was from Internet Infidels," a site that is more certainly anti-Christian:

Furthermore, there is no indication that the person whose website you linked to has permission to reprint the article.

[Guest]

Sharp Inquiry

{None of this is evidence that they believed in the fallen angel, Lucifer, or hell or demons as minions of Lucifer.}

What The Old Brothers Knew

The Big Picture Book Of Satan

(Job 1 )

[6] "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."

[7] "And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

[8] "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

[9] "Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?"

[12] "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD."

(Job 2 )

[1] "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD."

[2] "And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

[3] "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."

[4] "And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life."

[6] "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life."

[7] "So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown."

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork"

(Psalms 19:1 )

[Guest]

Inquiry Into Prehistory

Inquiry Into The Third Heaven

{None of this is evidence that they believed in the fallen angel, Lucifer, or hell or demons as minions of Lucifer.}

What The Book Told The Elders

The Big Picture Book Of Satan

Look At Me! Look At Me! Oops!

(Ezekiel 28 )

[14] "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

[15] "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

[16] "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

[17] "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."

[18] "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

[19] "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

{None of this is evidence that they believed in the fallen angel, Lucifer, or hell or demons as minions of Lucifer.}

Our Elder's Bible (OT) gives us solid Kindergarten evidence of what they believed. The love and care they showed The Bible (OT) tells us how deeply they respected God's Word!

We modern men can disrespect our Elders and The Written Word of God or not but we'll never change The Truth!

"And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,"

(Deuteronomy 10-12 )

[khalou]

I don't yet understand the posting method here it seems, but my responses are in bold---

A Curiously Good Question!

{I was talking about Abraham, David, Moses, Noah, people like that. None of them had ever heard of a devil or hell.}

So Curiosity Checks The Book~

David and Israel Learn From Their Bible!

Devil

"And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations."

(Leviticus 17:7 )

And, From David's Life:

Devil

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

(1 Chronicles 21:1 )

Davis speaks to God!

Hell

"And David spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD had delivered him out of the hand of all his enemies, and out of the hand of Saul:"

(2 Samuel 22:1 )

"The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;"

(2 Samuel 22:6 )

It wasn't until the second century BCE, at the earliest, that some Jews develop a dualistic nature of the universe where God was all good and some "other force" represented all that was bad. While the ancient Hebrews did have some demons, Azazel being a good example (scapegoat), the general idea was "I am the Lord thy God. I bring both good and evil, the light and the darkness", that sort of thing.

The Hebrew word "satan" simply means "oppressor". Many in the Bible were satans to various people according to the text. This happened in David's case, which can be easily seen since in an earlier version of the story (II Samuel 24:1)it was supposedly God himself that told David to hold the census. None of this is a problem for the Jews, who believe that David was simply getting too confident. But how can one justify the role of an evil fallen angel being played by God in an earlier version of the story? This isn't just my opinion, or the opinion of some handful of scholars on ancient Hebrewism, but is the opinion of every Jewish person on the planet with a copy of the Hebrew version of the OT, and have never changed their minds on the subject in their history. Even when the dualists came about by being influenced by religions in Babylon during the captivity never decided yet that the evil "force" in the world was either a fallen angel, nor the snake in the garden of Eden.

Moses Speaks about The Devil and about Hell to all Israel!

Devil

"And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended."

(Deuteronomy 31:30 )

"They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not."

(Deuteronomy 32:17 )

Hell

"And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended."

(Deuteronomy 31:30 )

"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

(Deuteronomy 32:22 )

This verse, taken in context has nothing to do with an eternal suffering place. The original word is Sheol, which is, as any good Jewish lad knows, is the low level of existence- death. In the OT, everybody goes there. The prophet is speaking about God's anger about Israel's past and future disobedience. He will not destroy them, but he will punish them. As is said in earlier veres, He will--

Verse 23 -- "I will heap disasters on them."

Verse 24 -- "They shall be wasted with HUNGER, devoured with pestilence."

Verse 25 -- "The SWORD will destroy outside."

In the rest of the chapter, God makes plain that He will not destroy them because of the promise made to Abraham.

But was He going to literally burn everything- sheol, the earth, the mountains? Take a look at another apocalyptic tantrum.

Isaiah 34:1-11- In which the subject of His anger is all about Edom-

"Come near, you nations, to hear, and heed, you people! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it. The world and all things that come forth from it. For the indignation of the Lord is against all nations, and his fury against all the armies. He has utterly destroyed them, he has given them over to the slaughter. Also their slain shall be thrown out, Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood. All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falls off from the vine, ...For my sword shall be bathed in heaven; behold, it shall come down upon Edom, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. The sword of the Lord is filled with blood... or the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah (capital of Edom), and a great slaughter in the land of Edom... For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompense for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch, it shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever; from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever, But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it... "

If you take all of this literally, then how can the pelicans and porcumines live through it all??

The first case was about God destroying Jerusalem, the second was about God destroying Edom. Guess who did both??

Babylon! Both secular and Biblical history shows this.

"I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are on the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it to whom it seemed proper to me. And now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant; and the beasts of the field I have also given to serve him. So all nations shall serve him and his son and his son's son, until the time of his land comes; and then many nations and great kings shall make him serve them. And it shall be, that the nation and kingdom which will not serve Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and which will not put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation I will punish, says the Lord, with the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand." (Jer 27:5-9)

But was God to continue to be happy with Babylon? Frayed Knot.

"Behold they (Babylon) shall be stubble, the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the elame; It shall not be a coal to be warmed by, nor a fire to sit before" (Isaiah 47:14).

I suppose I've made my point that the fire that would damn others to the lowest hell (which was only sheol, and was also the earth and the mountains) didn't have anything to do with an eternal place of torment. I could go on and on. Matter of fact, I will include one other, suprising mention of such burning- found in the New Testament. (John knew his audience. )

"You generation of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit worthy of repentance. Do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even now the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the FIRE. I baptize you with water for repentance but one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and FIRE. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the granary; but the chaff he will burn with UNQUENCHABLE FIRE" (Matthew 3:7-12).

This stuff is absolutely fascinating!

{None of them had ever heard of a devil or hell.}

The secret to The Truth is no secret!

Not at all. It's all right there in front of us. All we have to do is look.

Respectfully,

k

Edited October 11, 2006 by khalou

[khalou]

Sharp Inquiry

{None of this is evidence that they believed in the fallen angel, Lucifer, or hell or demons as minions of Lucifer.}

What The Old Brothers Knew

The Big Picture Book Of Satan

(Job 1 )

[6] "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."

[7] "And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

[8] "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

[9] "Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?"

[12] "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD."

(Job 2 )

[1] "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD."

[2] "And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

[3] "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."

[4] "And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life."

[6] "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life."

[7] "So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown."

I'm glad you brought this up, because it's an easy one.

There was never any problem among the people of the time this was written about the nature of things. The Hebrews believed that God was absolutely in charge of what befalls a man. They never believed that there was some evil entity that rebelled against God, because they believe that this sort of thing is impossible. The evil that occurs to an individual is on purpose by the will of God. The Zoroastrian, Christian, pagan idea that the spiritual realm is made up of an all good God, and an all evil anti-God was unknown to them at this time. Other cultures had such things, but not the ancient Hebrews. God's testing of Job was according to the will of God, and was carried out by God's will. Satan, as a fallen angel, wasn't explained until the very last book of the Bible. It was written quite early- perhaps in 68 CE, but certainly never occurred before the Babylonian captivity that led to a belief in a dualistic universe of a good and bad supernatural entity.

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork"

(Psalms 19:1 )

Yes, but only if one is willing to study what the heavens declare, and what the firmament sheweth. Anything else is just religion.

Respectfully-

k

Edited October 11, 2006 by khalou

[apothanein kerdos]

The tests for truth weren't the same as the are these days. Paul's writings were probably written before the gospels. I could be wrong about that, but it makes sense. Paul didn't refer to the life of Jesus at all- no details. None of the parables, none of the stories, nothing about the ministry.

There would have been no need. We look to Peter and realize that even though he was with Christ he still did not write about any of those thing either. The reason is quite simple; there were probably enough writings or at the very least oral traditions floating around that most Christians already had a good idea. Afterall, Paul was writing to Christians - they had accepted Christ based upon a Gospel story. Why repeat what they already know?

There are other reasons to think that the gospels were written later, after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, some more convincing than others.

The thing is, there is little evidence. The destruction of the temple is the best evidence for this. In Acts we have Paul visiting the temple, as well as in the Gospels we have Jesus visiting the temple. Remember, these were written by Jews and thus would have had a distinct style. One thing that we notice is that if an author is writing in retrospect, telling a historical lesson, and mentions something that is no longer in existence, it is announced. For instance, we look to Genesis and find that in Noah's day the earth was one. This is a qualification point. We do not see this in the Gospels; it is taken for granted that Jesus steps into the temple. Furthremore, Revelation includes the rebuilding of the temple and most likely has some references to the turmoil occuring during this time. It would have been the last book written thus dating it to around 76-80AD. This would place the Gospels prior to 70AD.

Further evidence is the ammount of manuscripts we know were being passed around by the 2nd century. By 100AD there were Christian settlements from Judea all the way to northern Gaul (modern day France). It is recorded that all had a copy, or somewhat of a copy, of the Gospels. If you can explain how within just 30 years there were thousands of manuscripts without a printing press, then you might have actually proven God exists for this would be a miracle bigger than the Red Sea, flood, and resurrection of the dead combined.

I don't think stories about hundreds of people who witnessed these things at that late date was for the purpose of making them seem more true. I don't think that that was a problem by then. I think it is only nowadays that such demands for evidence are important. I really believe that the early Christians circa the late first and early second century understood that these things had been written more recently than when they actually happened, and believed they were true through faith.

The only problem with this argument is that they didn't believe this at all. The entire reason the Gnostics labeled their Gospels "The Gospel of Timothy" and "The Gospel of Philip" is to lend credibility; they named them after these saints so that people would believe the writings had come directly from them. In fact, if you study church history the origin is one of the biggest arguments that Christians make against the Gnostics. It was a central teaching that none disagreed on that these epistles and Gospels had been penned by the very authors that were claimed.

[khalou]

Inquiry Into Prehistory

Inquiry Into The Third Heaven

{None of this is evidence that they believed in the fallen angel, Lucifer, or hell or demons as minions of Lucifer.}

What The Book Told The Elders

The Big Picture Book Of Satan

Look At Me! Look At Me! Oops!

(Ezekiel 28 )

[14] "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

[15] "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

[16] "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."

[17] "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."

[18] "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

[19] "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

{None of this is evidence that they believed in the fallen angel, Lucifer, or hell or demons as minions of Lucifer.}

Our Elder's Bible (OT) gives us solid Kindergarten evidence of what they believed. The love and care they showed The Bible (OT) tells us how deeply they respected God's Word!

We modern men can disrespect our Elders and The Written Word of God or not but we'll never change The Truth!

"And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,"

(Deuteronomy 10-12 )

This is a really good one. It seems that the various translations of it make it obscure, and, therefore, difficult to figure out. Have you ever heard of the Revised Standard version of the Bible? It says..

Ezekiel 28:14 With an anointed guardian cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. 16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire.

I will seek the verse in context, because I've never been challenged by it before. But the Revised Standard Version already makes a big difference between what you have posted and what might have been meant by it.

I will call this one a draw for now, and want to thank you for your interest and posts! I know that you are trying to help me to understand, and am grateful.

k