Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Yeah Khalou since discussing with you is hard can we please change the topic to something irrelevant so we don't have to challenge you on intellectual grounds anymore?

No, actually I feel that the argument is being made on behalf of the validity of the Scriptures. I also feel it is pointless to argue over this with you or anyother nonbeliver to include Khalou. I can't argue you into Christianity. I wasn't argued into it either. I know it's hard to believe, (Because all Christians are born into their Religion, elsewise they are lunkheaded shills who react to it based upon their emotions. Thus being thoughtless Neanderthals ), yet at one time I actually sounded alot like you. After that I became Religious and then I met Jesus. The rest is all history.

What is relevant to any Christians walk (and Khalou as well as yourself have both claimed to be Christian at one time) is the Revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So please tell us of the Revelation you received and then the subsequent experience you had as well dear friend Lepaca.

I wrote earlier on in the thread about this very subject. I believe it was about page 10. I never saw an answer and was wondering what Khalou's and now your answer would be.

Peace,

Dave

[khalou]

The tests for truth weren't the same as the are these days. Paul's writings were probably written before the gospels. I could be wrong about that, but it makes sense. Paul didn't refer to the life of Jesus at all- no details. None of the parables, none of the stories, nothing about the ministry.

There would have been no need. We look to Peter and realize that even though he was with Christ he still did not write about any of those thing either. The reason is quite simple; there were probably enough writings or at the very least oral traditions floating around that most Christians already had a good idea. Afterall, Paul was writing to Christians - they had accepted Christ based upon a Gospel story. Why repeat what they already know?

There are other reasons to think that the gospels were written later, after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, some more convincing than others.

The thing is, there is little evidence. The destruction of the temple is the best evidence for this. In Acts we have Paul visiting the temple, as well as in the Gospels we have Jesus visiting the temple. Remember, these were written by Jews and thus would have had a distinct style. One thing that we notice is that if an author is writing in retrospect, telling a historical lesson, and mentions something that is no longer in existence, it is announced. For instance, we look to Genesis and find that in Noah's day the earth was one. This is a qualification point. We do not see this in the Gospels; it is taken for granted that Jesus steps into the temple. Furthremore, Revelation includes the rebuilding of the temple and most likely has some references to the turmoil occuring during this time. It would have been the last book written thus dating it to around 76-80AD. This would place the Gospels prior to 70AD.

Further evidence is the ammount of manuscripts we know were being passed around by the 2nd century. By 100AD there were Christian settlements from Judea all the way to northern Gaul (modern day France). It is recorded that all had a copy, or somewhat of a copy, of the Gospels. If you can explain how within just 30 years there were thousands of manuscripts without a printing press, then you might have actually proven God exists for this would be a miracle bigger than the Red Sea, flood, and resurrection of the dead combined.

I don't think stories about hundreds of people who witnessed these things at that late date was for the purpose of making them seem more true. I don't think that that was a problem by then. I think it is only nowadays that such demands for evidence are important. I really believe that the early Christians circa the late first and early second century understood that these things had been written more recently than when they actually happened, and believed they were true through faith.

The only problem with this argument is that they didn't believe this at all. The entire reason the Gnostics labeled their Gospels "The Gospel of Timothy" and "The Gospel of Philip" is to lend credibility; they named them after these saints so that people would believe the writings had come directly from them. In fact, if you study church history the origin is one of the biggest arguments that Christians make against the Gnostics. It was a central teaching that none disagreed on that these epistles and Gospels had been penned by the very authors that were claimed.

Agreed absolutely! The writers of the Gospels obviously couldn't have been the Pele to whom they were eventually said to be, and since there was no monetary value to being known as the scribe of the widespread oral traditions of the time, I'm sure that no writer would complain.

k

Where did I say any of that?

Well, you didn't exactly say that about the writers of the gospels, but you are certainly correct that writings of the time were often said to have been written by people of merit in those days in order to make them seem more authoritative. No one disputes the fact that none of the actual disciples could have written these books after all.

k

My point is that Matthew, Luke, and Mark were all highly insignificant people and thus it would have made zero sense to pen the gospels in their names. There are MANY scholars who believe as I do.

If they were penned as early as you believe, you are correct.

But let's start with Mark. There were several Marks in the Bible, and many, many Marks of Roman citizenship. There was one Mark of significance who was a companion of Peter. Many Christian scholars believe it was this Mark who took what Peter had said and written it down after Peter's death. But this Mark had died before Peter, we discovered, and so, must have written this gospel before Peter's death. This is a bit too early according to what Mark says in his gospel, though, for various reasons. I used to think that Mark must have written after the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem because he described the events to a tee, but I'm not so sure now. It seems that it was apparent even before the Roman assault that it was inevitable. But while Mark's Jesus describes so well the tribulations associated with the destruction of the Temple, Mark also promises that His return will come very soon. -29 "Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 30 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.- This promise is made by Jesus to His disciples.

One other very important aspect of Mark's writing is to discern his audience- who was he writing for? His explanations of Jewish custom makes it apparent that he wasn't writing for Jews. Mark was written after Paul's letters, so it makes sense that the real thrust of at least his circle of believers was toward gentiles. He wasn't an authority on Jewish traditions at the time of Jesus, though, and used Roman slang much more so than a Jew would have- so he probably wasn't a Jew himself. He made telling mistakes in his commentary on what the Jews did during Jesus' time which leads me to believe that he must have lived around Jews, but not for long. At least one of the Jewish traditions, the washing of hands before eating, was only done by priests during the time of Jesus, but Mark would have us believe that the Pharisees took notice that some of the disciples didn't adhere to this ritual. (Mark 7)

The most significant aspect of Mark is that he depicted a sheepish, almost honorable Pontious Pilate instead of the insatiable, iron-fisted dictator we see in history. Mark doesn't blame the Romans for the death of Jesus, even though crucifixion was the exclusive method of death for enemies of the state of Rome. The Jews preferred stoning.

Since most agree that Mark was written first, which Gospel was second?

Matthew, but that's going to have to wait for another installment.

k

[khalou]

Grace to you,

Khalou,

You say that you were a Christian. Please allow us a look into your Christian Experience. Where and when did you have a Revelation of our Lord Jesus? How did this impact your life and subsequent walk?

I hear you quoting scripture and talking alot about Christianity. Yet Christianity is more of a Revelation than it is an experience.

I would like to hear of the Revelation of the Lord in your life and your Christian experience.

Peace,

Dave

Hi Dave,

My revelation? I had several, all the time. Jesus was the great truth in my life. No matter what happened, or where I looked, there He was, making sense of a senseless world. He was my love, and my inspiration. I'm not just speaking poetically here either. What would make Jesus proud of me? What would hurt Him? Whenever I sought His guidance, I was given the most perfect path to follow- one that transcended my own ingenuity, my own intellect. It wasn't always (hardly ever) the easiest path to follow, but always "felt" right. Through prayer, and study of His word, I could depend on Him to show me the path of love, righteousness, and faithful obedience to my Creator.

I instinctively knew when I'd trodden off the path set for me, but something inside me always told me that I'd done so, and, in every one of these circumstances, there He was, arms outstretched, to hold me and love me and forgive me and allow me to start again. It is a strict lifestyle, but one that allows that I am human, and one that teaches daily how incredible Jesus must have been to be able to internally know what path to follow without instruction. Truly the only human to ever have been able to do this, because He was God.

Of course, all along the way, there were moments of intense revelation, where tears and a broken heart would take me back to the base metal of my being, only to be reconstructed from scratch as a new being in Christ. I wanted more than anything else to be used as a tool to insure God's will on earth be done, and any part I could play, I readily did. My fellowship with other Christians were some of the happiest moments of my life- even now. And my occasional fall into temptation lead to nothing but unhappiness and an acute awareness of my distance from Him.

I looked to the Lord's Prayer, which is one of the most profound things one can find in the whole of the Bible because it tells us how to pray. It never asks for happiness, or money, or health, or earthly freedom, or to find your car keys- but only that the will of God be done on earth, whatever that brings me- bring it on!

I stumbled onto cocaine for awhile in my youth. I was quite addicted to it, though it all started out playfully. I am proud to say that I beat that addiction with only the help of my former faith- whenever I found myself in the depths of its influence, sweating and rocking and wondering how I could get more, I would recite the Bible. This is still a very special verse to me, and I highly recommend it to any Christian who finds themselves in such a dilemma-

"Create in me a clean heart, Oh God.

And renew a right spirit within me.

Cast me not away from thy presence.

And take not thy Holy Spirit from me.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation

And uphold me in thy free spirit.

I went between "thy free spirit" and "thy clean spirit" as the muse took me- depending on how I felt. God didn't seem to mind.

It worked. Jesus was there with me, and I knew that I didn't really want that stuff- Jesus' love was sufficient. I wanted those things again.

I suppose that could qualify as a revelation as well.

k

[khalou]

Yeah Khalou since discussing with you is hard can we please change the topic to something irrelevant so we don't have to challenge you on intellectual grounds anymore?

Thank you for making plain the boundaries of the great abyss.

I disagree with your chastisement, though I understand it. This poster has done exactly as one who "walks by faith, not by sight" should do.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think I know why you're here. Science can only see what science sees. It plods along and discovers things. Most are happy with what is discovered because it makes their lives simpler, and provides interesting fodder for movies.

It also makes us live longer, and cures some of our ills.

Walking by sight is a useful endeavor.

The funny thing is, as science walks by sight, sometimes, it discovers things that don't sit well with those who walk by faith. When quantum physics was first presented, Einstein argued against it because "God would not play dice with the universe".

Wow.

Here, we had experiments of the uncertainty principle, the double slit experiment, and other proofs, yet Einstein had a problem with it because of his faith.

I ask you a question. Is there anything wrong with faith as long as it doesn't trample on the fact that when you drop a ball, it falls?

Didn't think so.

So we have these perfectly different worldviews that COULD co-exist, except when one invades the other's space.

Well, science NEVER argues faith. It simply can't because faith is outside of the parameters of its laboratory. There can be no faith in science, so faith is off limits to science. Science, nicely, stays out of that argument. There are no scientific studies about whether Islam or Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism or paganism are more likely to be true, are there?

It is only when Christian decide to argue their point scientifically, or to argue their point by using scientific information that the debates occur. The invasion is all theirs. Your post seems to have suggested that they actually should be doing such a thing. The poster who you addressed didn't see it that way, and was respectfully staying within the "faith vs sight" parameters of that poster's worldview.

I will debate with enthusiasm those who would step into the arena of science in order to support their faith-based worldview. I don't suppose they can use logic or history or geology or anthropology or any other ology to support their faith, but I also know one other thing that is important-

I don't have a CHANCE against their faith. That arena is all theirs.

So while I appreciate your post that has allowed me to make a point, I hope you understand why it's important not to debate pure faith by scientific means. I understand the dynamics of how religion works, and am therefore exempt from its benefits. All religions that have lasted for a long time have evolved into very powerful methods of influencing one's perceptions for the better, and anyone who can truly buy into one of them will reap those benefits. The problem is, once you understand the dynamic of this, you are incapable of buying into it! I hope you see the profound truth in this, because I believe it is one of the most profound truths there is.

k

[khalou]

:emot-handshake: :clap: :clap:

Great post, khalou! I agree completely!

Which one??

k

[LightofJesus]

Grace to you,

Khalou,

You say that you were a Christian. Please allow us a look into your Christian Experience. Where and when did you have a Revelation of our Lord Jesus? How did this impact your life and subsequent walk?

I hear you quoting scripture and talking alot about Christianity. Yet Christianity is more of a Revelation than it is an experience.

I would like to hear of the Revelation of the Lord in your life and your Christian experience.

Peace,

Dave

Hi Dave,

My revelation? I had several, all the time. Jesus was the great truth in my life. No matter what happened, or where I looked, there He was, making sense of a senseless world. He was my love, and my inspiration. I'm not just speaking poetically here either. What would make Jesus proud of me? What would hurt Him? Whenever I sought His guidance, I was given the most perfect path to follow- one that transcended my own ingenuity, my own intellect. It wasn't always (hardly ever) the easiest path to follow, but always "felt" right. Through prayer, and study of His word, I could depend on Him to show me the path of love, righteousness, and faithful obedience to my Creator.

I instinctively knew when I'd trodden off the path set for me, but something inside me always told me that I'd done so, and, in every one of these circumstances, there He was, arms outstretched, to hold me and love me and forgive me and allow me to start again. It is a strict lifestyle, but one that allows that I am human, and one that teaches daily how incredible Jesus must have been to be able to internally know what path to follow without instruction. Truly the only human to ever have been able to do this, because He was God.

Of course, all along the way, there were moments of intense revelation, where tears and a broken heart would take me back to the base metal of my being, only to be reconstructed from scratch as a new being in Christ. I wanted more than anything else to be used as a tool to insure God's will on earth be done, and any part I could play, I readily did. My fellowship with other Christians were some of the happiest moments of my life- even now. And my occasional fall into temptation lead to nothing but unhappiness and an acute awareness of my distance from Him.

I looked to the Lord's Prayer, which is one of the most profound things one can find in the whole of the Bible because it tells us how to pray. It never asks for happiness, or money, or health, or earthly freedom, or to find your car keys- but only that the will of God be done on earth, whatever that brings me- bring it on!

I stumbled onto cocaine for awhile in my youth. I was quite addicted to it, though it all started out playfully. I am proud to say that I beat that addiction with only the help of my former faith- whenever I found myself in the depths of its influence, sweating and rocking and wondering how I could get more, I would recite the Bible. This is still a very special verse to me, and I highly recommend it to any Christian who finds themselves in such a dilemma-

"Create in me a clean heart, Oh God.

And renew a right spirit within me.

Cast me not away from thy presence.

And take not thy Holy Spirit from me.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation

And uphold me in thy free spirit.

I went between "thy free spirit" and "thy clean spirit" as the muse took me- depending on how I felt. God didn't seem to mind.

It worked. Jesus was there with me, and I knew that I didn't really want that stuff- Jesus' love was sufficient. I wanted those things again.

I suppose that could qualify as a revelation as well.

k

k

I just read this post of yours and it touched my heart, I have that scripture on my computer and I read it nearly everyday.

I can't even imagine what must have happened in your life that can turn you away from such a sweet relationship you had with our Lord? It brings me to tears to think you have really walked away, well you know He has not walked away from you, He will never leave you or forsake you NO MATTER WHAT!!!!

[Guest yod]

I ask you a question. Is there anything wrong with faith as long as it doesn't trample on the fact that when you drop a ball, it falls?

Didn't think so.

ah but you don't understand!

Sometimes things "supernatural" to science happen because of faith. Faith is about the supernatural.

But I agree with you to a point because there are many believers who don't get involved in deeper study of the Word enough to teach it on a discussion board in a way you would "get it". That doesn't mean they have no value as christians; it just means they are going to give you a most unscientific opinion if you start talking science with them.

We aren't usually here to discuss science

Do you have any questions about Jesus?

So we have these perfectly different worldviews that COULD co-exist, except when one invades the other's space.

I do agree with you there.

Unfortunately christianity is made of people. Some people are interested in going deeper into the "why" of faith and others are interested more in the "how" or "where"

In other words, we all have different jobs in the Kingdom. There are christians who are scientists and will take your debate. Not sure if any hang out at Worthy Boards....

I think Nebula could talk about space with you...

Well, science NEVER argues faith. It simply can't because faith is outside of the parameters of its laboratory.

Science can be a kind of faith itself.

"Faith" comes from a word that means "strong trust" and if one's trust is in science then they will go as far as science can take them....which is a long way in this world.

I have lots of faith in science! It is not where my ultimate faith lies though.

There can be no faith in science,

Yet there is. All humans put their faith in something.

I will debate with enthusiasm those who would step into the arena of science in order to support their faith-based worldview

"The Fingerprint of God" by astrophysicist Hugh Ross.

I don't suppose they can use logic or history or geology or anthropology or any other ology to support their faith, but I also know one other thing that is important-

I don't have a CHANCE against their faith. That arena is all theirs.

He came to faith BECAUSE of what he saw in science. It's a very interesting book and scientific perspective.

All religions that have lasted for a long time have evolved into very powerful methods of influencing one's perceptions for the better, and anyone who can truly buy into one of them will reap those benefits.

Are you saying that all religions are simply a psycological invention that benefits its participants because of a (supposed) higher moral character?

That does sound like a scientific measurement.

But there are things below the surface of the noise of gods.

And then there is God.

The problem is, once you understand the dynamic of this, you are incapable of buying into it! I hope you see the profound truth in this, because I believe it is one of the most profound truths there is.

k

And you don't think you've bought into something as well? We just have different "products". Mine comes with a guarantee to last for eternity. It wasn't cheap but you can have it for free during this limited-time offer.

I have faith to believe it will be true based on historical evidence (The Bible and concuring historical books) and supernatural events in my own life.

What is the clinical explanation for the Holy Spirit and how it changes everyone's life?

[billie]

Clinical??

[khalou]

Grace to you,

Khalou,

You say that you were a Christian. Please allow us a look into your Christian Experience. Where and when did you have a Revelation of our Lord Jesus? How did this impact your life and subsequent walk?

I hear you quoting scripture and talking alot about Christianity. Yet Christianity is more of a Revelation than it is an experience.

I would like to hear of the Revelation of the Lord in your life and your Christian experience.

Peace,

Dave

Hi Dave,

My revelation? I had several, all the time. Jesus was the great truth in my life. No matter what happened, or where I looked, there He was, making sense of a senseless world. He was my love, and my inspiration. I'm not just speaking poetically here either. What would make Jesus proud of me? What would hurt Him? Whenever I sought His guidance, I was given the most perfect path to follow- one that transcended my own ingenuity, my own intellect. It wasn't always (hardly ever) the easiest path to follow, but always "felt" right. Through prayer, and study of His word, I could depend on Him to show me the path of love, righteousness, and faithful obedience to my Creator.

I instinctively knew when I'd trodden off the path set for me, but something inside me always told me that I'd done so, and, in every one of these circumstances, there He was, arms outstretched, to hold me and love me and forgive me and allow me to start again. It is a strict lifestyle, but one that allows that I am human, and one that teaches daily how incredible Jesus must have been to be able to internally know what path to follow without instruction. Truly the only human to ever have been able to do this, because He was God.

Of course, all along the way, there were moments of intense revelation, where tears and a broken heart would take me back to the base metal of my being, only to be reconstructed from scratch as a new being in Christ. I wanted more than anything else to be used as a tool to insure God's will on earth be done, and any part I could play, I readily did. My fellowship with other Christians were some of the happiest moments of my life- even now. And my occasional fall into temptation lead to nothing but unhappiness and an acute awareness of my distance from Him.

I looked to the Lord's Prayer, which is one of the most profound things one can find in the whole of the Bible because it tells us how to pray. It never asks for happiness, or money, or health, or earthly freedom, or to find your car keys- but only that the will of God be done on earth, whatever that brings me- bring it on!

I stumbled onto cocaine for awhile in my youth. I was quite addicted to it, though it all started out playfully. I am proud to say that I beat that addiction with only the help of my former faith- whenever I found myself in the depths of its influence, sweating and rocking and wondering how I could get more, I would recite the Bible. This is still a very special verse to me, and I highly recommend it to any Christian who finds themselves in such a dilemma-

"Create in me a clean heart, Oh God.

And renew a right spirit within me.

Cast me not away from thy presence.

And take not thy Holy Spirit from me.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation

And uphold me in thy free spirit.

I went between "thy free spirit" and "thy clean spirit" as the muse took me- depending on how I felt. God didn't seem to mind.

It worked. Jesus was there with me, and I knew that I didn't really want that stuff- Jesus' love was sufficient. I wanted those things again.

I suppose that could qualify as a revelation as well.

k

k

I just read this post of yours and it touched my heart, I have that scripture on my computer and I read it nearly everyday.

I can't even imagine what must have happened in your life that can turn you away from such a sweet relationship you had with our Lord? It brings me to tears to think you have really walked away, well you know He has not walked away from you, He will never leave you or forsake you NO MATTER WHAT!!!!

Thank you for your precious connection to me. We humans get to do that, and it is a wonderful thing.

You didn't ask, but I know for a fact that there are people of other faiths that benefit from their beliefs as profoundly as I did. I'm glad I'm a human being, because it allows me to wonder and dream and consider things outside of my five senses, And I'm glad that you have found faith in your God. There is so much indescriminate suffering in this world brought about by circumstances, I'm glad you have found a way to make sense of it.

But don't listen to Christians who would tell you that God has left any trace of evidence of His existence here that can be determined by evidence, because your human interpretation is all you need. Your personal evidence is all you need. No one can argue with that, and if anyone tries, I will be glad to tell them that they are wrong.

But, also, remember that when some scientific discovery says something different than what you might believe, don't worry. Don't argue, or listen to any arguments, because your beliefs are not based on how creation works, or the mechanisms of God's natural world. Keep your heart and mind on the Kingdom, and all else will follow.

k

[Guest yod]

yes "clinical"

If K's faith is in science he will have a psycological answer to why a person's life changes when they come to "faith"

.