Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[billie]

Oh, okay, thanks for clarifying Yod.

I wasn't sure what you meant by clinical.

[khalou]

It happened again~! I don't understand this board. Oh well, my responses are in bold.

I ask you a question. Is there anything wrong with faith as long as it doesn't trample on the fact that when you drop a ball, it falls?

Didn't think so.

ah but you don't understand!

Sometimes things "supernatural" to science happen because of faith. Faith is about the supernatural.

But I agree with you to a point because there are many believers who don't get involved in deeper study of the Word enough to teach it on a discussion board in a way you would "get it". That doesn't mean they have no value as christians; it just means they are going to give you a most unscientific opinion if you start talking science with them.

We aren't usually here to discuss science

Do you have any questions about Jesus?

Not right now.

{quote]

So we have these perfectly different worldviews that COULD co-exist, except when one invades the other's space.

I do agree with you there.

Unfortunately christianity is made of people. Some people are interested in going deeper into the "why" of faith and others are interested more in the "how" or "where"

In other words, we all different jobs in the Kingdom. There are christians who are scientists and will take your debate. Not sure if any hang out at Worthy Boards....

I think Nebula could talk about space with you...

Edited October 12, 2006 by khalou

[khalou]

yes "clinical"

If K's faith is in science he will have a psycological answer to why a person's life changes when they come to "faith"

.

Of course I do. Can't you guess what it might be by what I've already written??

k

[Copper Scroll]

I understand the dynamics of how religion works, and am therefore exempt from its benefits. All religions that have lasted for a long time have evolved into very powerful methods of influencing one's perceptions for the better, and anyone who can truly buy into one of them will reap those benefits. The problem is, once you understand the dynamic of this, you are incapable of buying into it! I hope you see the profound truth in this, because I believe it is one of the most profound truths there is.

This is interesting. Care to start a thread to share this "profound truth" about "the dynamics of how religion works," or do you think sharing this knowledge is too dangerous--that it would violently rip the blinds off the heads of the faithful on this forum and create cataclysm that would ripple throughout the Christian, Islamic, and Hindu worlds destroying everything in its path?

(Sorry if you answered this already. I haven't been following this thread.)

[LightofJesus]

Grace to you,

Khalou,

You say that you were a Christian. Please allow us a look into your Christian Experience. Where and when did you have a Revelation of our Lord Jesus? How did this impact your life and subsequent walk?

I hear you quoting scripture and talking alot about Christianity. Yet Christianity is more of a Revelation than it is an experience.

I would like to hear of the Revelation of the Lord in your life and your Christian experience.

Peace,

Dave

Hi Dave,

My revelation? I had several, all the time. Jesus was the great truth in my life. No matter what happened, or where I looked, there He was, making sense of a senseless world. He was my love, and my inspiration. I'm not just speaking poetically here either. What would make Jesus proud of me? What would hurt Him? Whenever I sought His guidance, I was given the most perfect path to follow- one that transcended my own ingenuity, my own intellect. It wasn't always (hardly ever) the easiest path to follow, but always "felt" right. Through prayer, and study of His word, I could depend on Him to show me the path of love, righteousness, and faithful obedience to my Creator.

I instinctively knew when I'd trodden off the path set for me, but something inside me always told me that I'd done so, and, in every one of these circumstances, there He was, arms outstretched, to hold me and love me and forgive me and allow me to start again. It is a strict lifestyle, but one that allows that I am human, and one that teaches daily how incredible Jesus must have been to be able to internally know what path to follow without instruction. Truly the only human to ever have been able to do this, because He was God.

Of course, all along the way, there were moments of intense revelation, where tears and a broken heart would take me back to the base metal of my being, only to be reconstructed from scratch as a new being in Christ. I wanted more than anything else to be used as a tool to insure God's will on earth be done, and any part I could play, I readily did. My fellowship with other Christians were some of the happiest moments of my life- even now. And my occasional fall into temptation lead to nothing but unhappiness and an acute awareness of my distance from Him.

I looked to the Lord's Prayer, which is one of the most profound things one can find in the whole of the Bible because it tells us how to pray. It never asks for happiness, or money, or health, or earthly freedom, or to find your car keys- but only that the will of God be done on earth, whatever that brings me- bring it on!

I stumbled onto cocaine for awhile in my youth. I was quite addicted to it, though it all started out playfully. I am proud to say that I beat that addiction with only the help of my former faith- whenever I found myself in the depths of its influence, sweating and rocking and wondering how I could get more, I would recite the Bible. This is still a very special verse to me, and I highly recommend it to any Christian who finds themselves in such a dilemma-

"Create in me a clean heart, Oh God.

And renew a right spirit within me.

Cast me not away from thy presence.

And take not thy Holy Spirit from me.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation

And uphold me in thy free spirit.

I went between "thy free spirit" and "thy clean spirit" as the muse took me- depending on how I felt. God didn't seem to mind.

It worked. Jesus was there with me, and I knew that I didn't really want that stuff- Jesus' love was sufficient. I wanted those things again.

I suppose that could qualify as a revelation as well.

k

k

I just read this post of yours and it touched my heart, I have that scripture on my computer and I read it nearly everyday.

I can't even imagine what must have happened in your life that can turn you away from such a sweet relationship you had with our Lord? It brings me to tears to think you have really walked away, well you know He has not walked away from you, He will never leave you or forsake you NO MATTER WHAT!!!!

Thank you for your precious connection to me. We humans get to do that, and it is a wonderful thing.

You didn't ask, but I know for a fact that there are people of other faiths that benefit from their beliefs as profoundly as I did. I'm glad I'm a human being, because it allows me to wonder and dream and consider things outside of my five senses, And I'm glad that you have found faith in your God. There is so much indescriminate suffering in this world brought about by circumstances, I'm glad you have found a way to make sense of it.

But don't listen to Christians who would tell you that God has left any trace of evidence of His existence here that can be determined by evidence, because your human interpretation is all you need. Your personal evidence is all you need. No one can argue with that, and if anyone tries, I will be glad to tell them that they are wrong.

But, also, remember that when some scientific discovery says something different than what you might believe, don't worry. Don't argue, or listen to any arguments, because your beliefs are not based on how creation works, or the mechanisms of God's natural world. Keep your heart and mind on the Kingdom, and all else will follow.

k

k

Hi again

Can I ask you where you are located? and if I may be so bold how old you are? Just curious, if I'm stepping over bounds I apologize.

I pray for you all the time and I guess I just want you to know that my heart is there for you

[Floatingaxe]

I understand the dynamics of how religion works, and am therefore exempt from its benefits. All religions that have lasted for a long time have evolved into very powerful methods of influencing one's perceptions for the better, and anyone who can truly buy into one of them will reap those benefits. The problem is, once you understand the dynamic of this, you are incapable of buying into it! I hope you see the profound truth in this, because I believe it is one of the most profound truths there is.

I am a bit behind in following this thread, but I did catch this. How lofty and self-absorbed this view is. It is proof that you are believing a lie, served up on a silver platter. You have fallen for this delicacy! Woe to you, friend. You have made yourself your own god.

In Jesus name, I now bind that spirit of the lie and cast it down, cancelling the agenda of Satan in your life. Open your spiritual eyes and see the Christ who loves you and gave His life for you.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Bless you Khalou,

Hi Dave,

My revelation? I had several, all the time. Jesus was the great truth in my life. No matter what happened, or where I looked, there He was, making sense of a senseless world. He was my love, and my inspiration. I'm not just speaking poetically here either. What would make Jesus proud of me? What would hurt Him? Whenever I sought His guidance, I was given the most perfect path to follow- one that transcended my own ingenuity, my own intellect. It wasn't always (hardly ever) the easiest path to follow, but always "felt" right. Through prayer, and study of His word, I could depend on Him to show me the path of love, righteousness, and faithful obedience to my Creator.

I instinctively knew when I'd trodden off the path set for me, but something inside me always told me that I'd done so, and, in every one of these circumstances, there He was, arms outstretched, to hold me and love me and forgive me and allow me to start again. It is a strict lifestyle, but one that allows that I am human, and one that teaches daily how incredible Jesus must have been to be able to internally know what path to follow without instruction. Truly the only human to ever have been able to do this, because He was God.

Of course, all along the way, there were moments of intense revelation, where tears and a broken heart would take me back to the base metal of my being, only to be reconstructed from scratch as a new being in Christ. I wanted more than anything else to be used as a tool to insure God's will on earth be done, and any part I could play, I readily did. My fellowship with other Christians were some of the happiest moments of my life- even now. And my occasional fall into temptation lead to nothing but unhappiness and an acute awareness of my distance from Him.

I looked to the Lord's Prayer, which is one of the most profound things one can find in the whole of the Bible because it tells us how to pray. It never asks for happiness, or money, or health, or earthly freedom, or to find your car keys- but only that the will of God be done on earth, whatever that brings me- bring it on!

I stumbled onto cocaine for awhile in my youth. I was quite addicted to it, though it all started out playfully. I am proud to say that I beat that addiction with only the help of my former faith- whenever I found myself in the depths of its influence, sweating and rocking and wondering how I could get more, I would recite the Bible. This is still a very special verse to me, and I highly recommend it to any Christian who finds themselves in such a dilemma-

"Create in me a clean heart, Oh God.

And renew a right spirit within me.

Cast me not away from thy presence.

And take not thy Holy Spirit from me.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation

And uphold me in thy free spirit.

I went between "thy free spirit" and "thy clean spirit" as the muse took me- depending on how I felt. God didn't seem to mind.

It worked. Jesus was there with me, and I knew that I didn't really want that stuff- Jesus' love was sufficient. I wanted those things again.

I suppose that could qualify as a revelation as well.

k

I'm not trying to over analyze your post here. However I will say that it sounds kinda (to borrow a phrase from Yod) Clinical. When in reality I have found my Faith and Relationship with the Lord to be REAL and kinda MESSY. I am the one making a mess out of it.

I'm never ever looking to make Jesus proud of me. I simply can't. I can only Obey it is better than sacrifice.

My walk with the Lord began when I realized how far off the mark I was. That I was indeed sinful and in need of Salvation. How did this come to pass? When I had a Revelation of the Lord. This Revelation came from hearing (for formerly I was deaf) and hearing came from the Word. (The Word is Living and active, sharper than a double edged Sword. It cut across the death of my life and exposed my heart to the Word. Which in turn brought forth repentance unto New Life not sorrow and more death).

Jesus didn't come to make me feel better about myself. Quite the contrary. He came to die for my sins. To die my death which I was in turn living. To rise so that I could have New Life.

Maybe your experience has been one of what you have described here?

All religions have evolved into very powerful methods of influencing one's perceptions for the better, and anyone who can truly buy into one of them will reap those benefits.

In this case I can see how your experience may have been a mean one.

God has asked us to set aside everything else and put Him first. This is actually hard, real, and messy. To seek after the Kingdom of Heaven and not our happiness. The Blessing of Peace follows on the heals of Obedience. Yet still and all Jesus hasn't promised us ,"No trouble", in the world. However what He has promised is that He has overcome the world. We too shall, Yet not always will it be wrapped up into a neat little box because we are real and so is He and He understands our nature. This is why He has given us a new one.

Joh

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Khalou,

I had another thought as well.

Have you ever looked deep inside yourself. Not in search of God. For He surely cannot be found there. Yet to examine yourself in Light of the Revelation of Him.

You have admitted that you defeated Cocaine through the Power of God. Only could Jesus Christ accomplish this. Yet now you have absolved yourself of Him. What Hope in you is there of holding back the onslaught of Cocaine?

The Lord was tempted in Matthew 4. He was tempted for the greater Glory of God. The onslaught was this though. "If you are the son of God" not only once but twice. Secondly He was offered everything in this world, a momentary fleeting passing thing, if only He would worship satan. Yet He knew the Love of God the Father and also knew that these things were temporal. He defeated His flesh and walked on past the temptation, even rebuking it and the Temptor.

What enabled Him to do this to pass this Test, this Tempting?

First He did not believe the lie. He believed the Word of God. He was indeed the Son of God. Secondly, He knew that this world was a passing fleeting thing. A Momentary Pleasure and then it would be gone. The promises of His Father were so much very more weighty. He had a Hope that surpassed His temporary circumstance and although He at the time could have equated God with being Mean or even abadoning Him to the Test. He knew the natrure of God the Father and that He was indeed Good. Righteous, Holy, Just, and Truth. Despite His current circumstance, which was one of extreme hunger, likely thirst as well as the overwhelming desire of His Flesh for the comforts of this world. He pushed past all of thatand knew the Eternal Hope of God.

Ah' Scripture is indeed True when it says this;

Heb

[khalou]

I just re-read my replies in this post and I'm afraid I sound much more confrontational than I wanted to. I apologize if that's the case.

k

It happened again~! I don't understand this board. Oh well, my responses are in bold.

I ask you a question. Is there anything wrong with faith as long as it doesn't trample on the fact that when you drop a ball, it falls?

Didn't think so.

ah but you don't understand!

Sometimes things "supernatural" to science happen because of faith. Faith is about the supernatural.

But I agree with you to a point because there are many believers who don't get involved in deeper study of the Word enough to teach it on a discussion board in a way you would "get it". That doesn't mean they have no value as christians; it just means they are going to give you a most unscientific opinion if you start talking science with them.

We aren't usually here to discuss science

Do you have any questions about Jesus?

Not right now.

{quote]

So we have these perfectly different worldviews that COULD co-exist, except when one invades the other's space.

I do agree with you there.

Unfortunately christianity is made of people. Some people are interested in going deeper into the "why" of faith and others are interested more in the "how" or "where"

In other words, we all different jobs in the Kingdom. There are christians who are scientists and will take your debate. Not sure if any hang out at Worthy Boards....

I think Nebula could talk about space with you...

But not you, huh?

Well, science NEVER argues faith. It simply can't because faith is outside of the parameters of its laboratory.

Science can be a kind of faith itself.

"Faith" comes from a word that means "strong trust" and if one's trust is in science then they will go as far as science can take them....which is a long way in this world.

Actually, it can't take us very far at all. Who told you that?

There can be no faith in science,

Yet there is. All humans put their faith in something.

Humans do. Science can't. Science isn't a human being. Individual scientists are, but they are made up of every possible belief system and political influence there is on the planet. Science is a global concern, and demands that all scientists agree before it will even entertain an idea. If any individual can falsify any scientific concept (which includes you), then all will have to agree to that refutation.

I will debate with enthusiasm those who would step into the arena of science in order to support their faith-based worldview

"The Fingerprint of God" by astrophysicist Hugh Ross.

I will look for it.

I don't suppose they can use logic or history or geology or anthropology or any other ology to support their faith, but I also know one other thing that is important-

I don't have a CHANCE against their faith. That arena is all theirs.

He came to faith BECAUSE of what he saw in science. It's a very interesting book and scientific perspective.

I've heard this sort of claim before. It sounds like this guy has come up with something that will rock the world. I wonder why he has chosen one of the worst forums on the planet for showing his work scientifically- the popular media?

Why can't people like this just do like the rest of the scientists and publish their work in a scientific journal?

Because the public is an easier sell?

All religions that have lasted for a long time have evolved into very powerful methods of influencing one's perceptions for the better, and anyone who can truly buy into one of them will reap those benefits.

Are you saying that all religions are simply a psycological invention that benefits its participants because of a (supposed) higher moral character?

That does sound like a scientific measurement.

But there are things below the surface of the noise of gods.

And then there is God.

There is always God, but which one?

Are you actually arguing that those Christians that you mention as being not so scientific should burn in hell just because they haven't studied science as you have? Is reading that book that you brought up a prerequisite to salvation?

The problem is, once you understand the dynamic of this, you are incapable of buying into it! I hope you see the profound truth in this, because I believe it is one of the most profound truths there is.

k

And you don't think you've bought into something as well? We just have different "products". Mine comes with a guarantee to last for eternity.

I have faith to believe it will be true based on historical evidence (The Bible and concuring historical books) and supernatural events in my own life.

What is the clinical explanation for the Holy Spirit and how it changes everyone's life?

[Guest yod]

Do you have any questions about Jesus?

Not right now.

I think Nebula could talk about space with you...

But not you, huh?

Maybe but I'm not interested. It is a waste of time on an irrelevant subject.

In other words...

Not right now.

Actually, it can't take us very far at all. Who told you that?

Are you saying that science has no practical use?

Humans do. Science can't. Science isn't a human being. Individual scientists are, but they are made up of every possible belief system and political influence there is on the planet. Science is a global concern, and demands that all scientists agree before it will even entertain an idea. If any individual can falsify any scientific concept (which includes you), then all will have to agree to that refutation.

Oh malarky.

How many centuries did science say the earth was flat? How long have we heard there were 9 planets? There are as many or more denominations within science as there are in religion.

He came to faith BECAUSE of what he saw in science. It's a very interesting book and scientific perspective.

I've heard this sort of claim before. It sounds like this guy has come up with something that will rock the world. I wonder why he has chosen one of the worst forums on the planet for showing his work scientifically- the popular media?

Why can't people like this just do like the rest of the scientists and publish their work in a scientific journal?

Because the public is an easier sell?

I don't know that he didn't publish them in scientific journals...but I do know the dismissive attitude of the scientific community of anything that points to God. As you have made clear it is outside the realm of science to address that.

Science is basically the objective measurement of physical objects and concepts. While the Creation can be measured, God can not be.

There is always God, but which one?

There is only One who has announced from old the things to come. Only One who was raised from the dead and left an empty grave.

Are you actually arguing that those Christians that you mention as being not so scientific should burn in hell just because they haven't studied science as you have? Is reading that book that you brought up a prerequisite to salvation?

I said nothing close to that. It is you who thinks we should be able to explain the science to you. I'm only saying that science is rendered irrelevant by the supernatural

I would tell you, but you are on the brink of disbelief as it is.

very funny.

You've given no scientific reason why I should be