Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[khalou]

Which two?

k

I have to pair this down so it's not so huge!!!

I'm not a theologian by any stretch of the imagination, but I will give it a shot. As an aside, the 'lack of understanding' comment was not meant as a dig, or insult in any way, shape or form.

You are trying to mix the Mosaic dispensation, from Moses to Christ with the age of grace dispensation, from Christ to present day. God dealt with/deals with people very differently during these different dispensations. The Israelites were/are His chosen people, i.e., they were the people by which He would teach the world about Himself. I know it sounds cruel, but He instructed Israel to destroy certain groups of people, to the last person, because they were morally and spiritually corrupt, totally. God also knew that if these people were not eliminated, they would lead the Hebrews into idol worship and polytheism, which after failing to heed and carry out God's instructions, is exactly what happened. This lack of obedience lead to the Jews being lead into captivity and subjugated numerous times, each time they failed to totally obey God. Funny thing is, the Jews just would not assimilate and fade out of history, because they were stubborn, and it wasn't part of God's plan. With Christ's death and resurrection, the sin debt was paid, in full, and the group of people that would now fulfill God's plan to tell the world about Him, and salvation was the Gentiles. God gives us chance, after chance after chance to turn to Him in repentance. But man is stubborn and keeps on wanting to think he has all the answers. If you take a look around at our world today, I think it is pretty clear that man obviously does not have the answer. I keep hearing people that say we can build a better world without religion or God, if we just try a little harder. Well, that sounds good, but obviously, if we could, we would have already done it.

I will leave you with this scripture, penned by the prophet Zechariah, in approx. 520 BCE. Ponder it and ask yourself if this was just a lucky guess, because it could be taken out of todays newspaper, yet it was written 2500 years ago:

Zechariah 12:2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.

Just imagine what an awesome christian you would make, because it is so much harder to believe that God does not exist.

Christians who would make America a Christian nation invariably rely on the Old Testament treatment of the Old Testament Hebrews and their laws and stuff. I agree that the Christian ideal is no longer based on nations, but individual souls. If you agree also, then I think it important that we, together, fight against this notion as it can only lead to totalitarianism and a human interpretation of government.

But, as far as it being so much harder to believe that God does not exist, I would ask that you provide any evidence whatsoever that He does. Speaking as a person that doesn't do eternal pain well, I would appreciate any help in believing in your God. Since you hold this opinion, I'm sure you can do that.

k

[khalou]

I respect your faith enough not to try to sway you from it, but your interpretation of that faith is based on your experience, certainly not on the Bible. For example, could you kindly give me Biblical evidence that "a true Christian's faith grows and grows from glory to glory, made more solid over time and experience with God" as is shown from Biblical text?

k

I will get in the middle of this because I can.

Let me start with a question. Does the atheist community believe that there is or will be a time when all of humankind can or will achieve life forevermore? Can humankind achieve a place where there is no death?

The Bible teaches about a kingdom that is coming. In this kingdom, there is no death. The Bible tells us that when we have preached this good news to every nation (ethnos=ethnic group) the end of the world as we know it, a world full of death, will be there. The Bible, in context, leads me to believe that this place can be achieved by literally keeping and "doing" the commandments of Jesus Christ

[khalou]

Remember atheists aren't atheists to be spiteful , atheists are atheists because the evidence is not there.

Atheists are atheists because they don't want to be "shackled" by moral dilemnas

I thought we've gone over this before. You can't really accuse atheists of being immoral or not law abiding as the statistics show that atheists comprise less of the prison population as a percentage as compared to society and stay married longer than theists. (Check Gallup)

Now to answer your charge of not wanting to be shackled that is simply not the case. Christianity is the best game in town if it were true. Come on you tow the line for a short period here on earth and Kazam! you live forever with no worries. It's a piece of cake. Who would deny that offer? No, you will find that most atheists were once involved in religion and after trying to validate what was put to them found the evidence as not being supportable. You will also find that most atheists are far more learned in Christianity than most "born agains" or Evangelicals.

So far, you are absolutely correct. I have not found many Christians who understand the Bible and the history of the Bible. It is apparent in their responses to questions I've asked.

Christians: Don't get all mad at me for saying this. If I ask a question about Biblical scholarship, and your answer shows that you have never heard of what I'm talking about, you can't blame me for supposing that you haven't even studied Biblical scholarship.

While Christians spend a lot of time looking at reasons to believe what they believe, they don't seem interested in what shows that they might be wrong about this or that. Even apologists like Josh don't seem interested in the arguments, but only in creating pseudo-science in the support of Christianity.

At least, I would expect that whatever I bring up has already been considered, and has an answer. That's why I ask. Makes sense, doesn't it? But instead of being seen as a seeker, I am told that I am arguing for the sake of argument, and am a bad guy because I'm trying to hurt the faith.

This only leads me to believe that Christians don't have any idea what's going on in the sciences, and don't want to know. I believe that Christianity is faith-based, and would easily retreat in the face of such an admission, but that's not what I get. What I get is that scientific evidence shows that the Christian God is real, and that any scientific evidence that goes against some individual interpretation of the Bible is wrong because science is biased, but without any explanation of how this is possible.

When I present evidence that global science couldn't possibly be biased because scientists all over the world have very different beliefs and very different politics, I'm told... well, I haven't been able to figure out what I'm told. "Science is wrong" basically, I guess. But no one can tell me how this works.

k

[khalou]

"Interestingly, the Hebrews never believed in a messiah like Jesus, never believed in a devil, never believed in hell, and certainly never believed in pagan stories of a God-Man that died for the sins of the world.

They still don't to this day."

You must not have ever talked to a Jew who believed in Jesus as Messiah then.

I have. I wasn't talking about Jews who believe that now. I was talking about Abraham, David, Moses, Noah, people like that.

None of them had ever heard of a devil or hell.

k

How do you know they hadnt??

How do I know? Well, because they hadn't, I guess. The ideas of a devil or hell crept in after the Babylonian captivity which took the intellectuals, which included the priesthood, to Babylon where such things were believed in.

You think that they believed in such things? Maybe I should ask you, then, how do you know they had?

k

The Book of Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible. The first 2 chapters include conversations between God and satan. Satan means adversary (amongst other meanings). Whoever wrote Job was well aware of an adversary of God. The may not have 'classifeid' it as "the devil" but they were aware of a fallen angel who was opposed to God and mankind.

David was aware of Sheol.

The book of Jude in the NT records a consversation (well a dispute) between Archangel Micheal and Satan over the body of Moses. These passages in the book of Jude about this dispute are taken from The book of Enoch, which is not a canonical book of the Bible (though some scholars believe it should be) but has its roots and authorship deep into the early biblical times. Again, the Book of enoch records the adversary; the devil or satan.

Although the beliefs of the devil/sheol are not to prevelant in most of the OT writings, they certainly knew about Sheol, and satan. And these writings ie the book of Job, Enoch and the Psalms of David which mention Sheol a couple times, were well before the Babylonian period

Hope this helps

Jai Patel

The ancient Hebrews never believe what you're telling me. You don't get to change that just because you want to, you know. I have had many meaningful conversations with Christians who are well educated in history that assure me that God didn't reveal the nature of Satan to the Hebrews of the time. If you are a historian of any sort, you need to publish a paper, because you would be accepted as a trailblazer among them.

Did you miss my post about these things?

Satan in Job was an emissary of the God of Abraham who brought both good and evil. Nothing happened to a man except by the will of God. This Satan was a member of God's court and was loyal to God. David held that census because of Satan in one version in the Bible, and because of God Himself in an earlier version. Those ancient Hebrews believed that no supernatural entity was capable of disobeying God. God is all powerful according to them.

You need to read more.

k

[redeemed098]

Your right it's not up to me, that right is reserved for God!

As I put in my post!

I apologise if I offended you or any other atheist but

I won't apologise for my opinions you may agree or

disagree that is your right!

God Bless!

Your opinion is based on an absolute void of experience. You haven't been an atheist as far as I know, and if you ever were, then I can't imagine what your atheism was based on, except perhaps a hatred of God, which would indicate that you weren't really an atheist to begin with.

You are not willing to apologize for saying that atheists want to take people with them to hell, which suggests that atheists are hateful and willfully antagonistic towards other people for no reason that makes any sense at all. Fine. That doesn't bother me nearly as much as your suggesting that atheists even conceive of the concept of hell. In all the world's religions, only a very few believe in that concept. That being said, how can you even marginally entertain the idea that an atheist would do so?

I know it is hard for a believer to relate to a universe that doesn't include a God (believe me, I know the difference, and it is profound!).

But as long as believers judge non-believers according to their worldview, then they will never be able to even engage non-believers in conversation, because Jesus was absolutely correct in His treatment of people. That's right, an atheist agrees with Jesus' treatment of non-believers, and if Christians actually adopted His treatment of non-believers, then there would be a discernible impact on the non-believers' opinion of Christians.

But that's not what we get. All we get is a very human aggressiveness and assertion according to human emotion and interpretation that we are outsiders.

Especially in America, there is a most pointed paranoia that if people don't agree immediately just because of an argument or two, then those people are evil and destined for hell. Paranoia? Why?

Love your enemy can't be done in light of this paranoia. Christians can't have non-Christians posting on the boards at large, or someone might turn away. Can you imagine any other site deciding that if someone doesn't subscribe to the dogma of that board, then they can't post on all the available boards?

A board about planting trees could, once determining that someone doesn't agree with the shaking off of the original dirt from the roots before planting, could make that poster only post on a few boards because they don't want those evil ideas to permeate the population.

Did Jesus go to Zacheus's house or didn't He? Wasn't that seen by the population as being "not done"? Did He care what the people thought? Was He inclusive? or exclusive?

Well, this site is exclusive. That tells me that Christianity is either paranoid about what it may hear, and therefore paranoid about its position, and unfaithful in its faith in God's ability to love and keep who is His, or has lost the good sensibilities that Jesus originally taught.

Love conquers all. I'm thinking that it isn't the fear of what atheists might say that makes this board exclusive, but what Christians might say because they don't seem to understand the purpose of Christianity. Good idea.

True Christians are few and far between. I was one, but have recently seen that there is no God, but in the meantime, I can't believe what I'm seeing from supposed Christians with regard to Jesus' truth.

Your message must, at the very least, transcend human intellect in favor of love. If it doesn't, you might as well be Sadducees.

k

I think you meant Pharisees....Saducees simply failed to believe in the ressurrection.

You harbour bitterness Khalou, and it is no surprise that you feel the way you do..Theres just one problem though with all of your thoughts and comments...

Gods forgiveness through Christ was never about US ever being able to measure up..Gods forgiveness through Christ was NEVER about being Worthy to receive it...Gods Forgiveness through Christ has only ever been a measure of how Worthy Christ is....The gospel of Christ has always been about how forgiving GOD is, not how worthy we are to RECEIVE his Forgiveness...

The bitterness and unforgiveness YOU are holding onto will only ever burden YOU Khalou....Unforgiveness only ever hurts the person who holds ONTO it...That is why forgiveness is so key in the message of the gospel....That is why the gospel is a message of Reconciliation....Reconciliation between God and his Redeemed. "Forgive us OUR sins as we forgive those who have sinned AGAINST us..." "For if you cannot forgive a man of HIS sins, then your heavenly father cannot forgive YOU of YOURS.."

There are those who are bound by the curse of sin Khalou, and there are those who are bound by unforgiveness having been sinned AGAINST.

You seem to have had a bitter experience as a "believer of some sort", but you have only demonstrated by these words that YOU yourself are also a reflection of the very things you have criticized.....

Yes Jesus spent time with and dined with sinners...Of course he did...He came to his OWN people...They KNEW they were sinners....Jesus didnt have to lay it on the table what sin WAS...HE didnt have to teach them the laws..They were already well versed in the Laws...He simply told them to "Go and sin no more, lest something worse befalls you." He didnt come to teach them what sin WAS...He came to call them to REPENTANCE...."Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand."

He came to reveal himself as the one prophesied...He didnt need to announce anything to DO with the Messiah because THEY by their actions revealed this themselves......You can use Jesus as your defense for judgement and justification for your own attitude as much as you like Khalou...Truth is, he came to his own...He was not telling UNbelievers not to judge one another....He was telling BELIEVERS and DISCIPLES....For Judgement begins with the Family of God.

So you see, in your own attitude towards believers you are doing what is right, but you are not doing it in a right way..You are not teaching, you are criticizing..

This my friend paints YOU in the same picture as you are painting OTHERS....

Spare a thought for Paul. HE had the mission of revealing sin to people who didnt believe they were sinners...He had the mission also of keeping the churches united in Christ.....His revelation on the road to Damascus was Huge....So too because of that revelation was what would be expected of him...

"To him whom much is revealed, much is expected."

Faith is a gift given by God......If it is given by God, then the only one who can take it away IS God....If you claim as you do to have once been A Christian, then I must ask what happened to that gift..? Did God take it away from you....??? If he didnt, then what or who was sustaining your relationship with God in the first place....?

This gift of faith which I have is not my own Khalou...It is the gift from God. It is HIS..IT belongs to HIM, but he has given it to ME..HE sustains ME...It is through my walk with the Holy Spirit of God IN ME, that I am able to gain understanding and knowledge of God in an UNcorrupted Truth. You need to understand that there are times when it is a better witness NOT to be somewhere, than it is to BE there...

Please dont ever forget this one thing..Though Jesus died for ALL men.......He came to his OWN...Israel. He in THAT sense is VERY EXCLUSIVE....Please think about these things..

Paul is a preacher and expounder of the gospel to the GENTILES.......Paul is the messenger and apostle appointed by God to preach the good news to the Gentiles...Paul taught and demonstrated through the power of the Holy Spirit, the OUTworkings of the Teachings of Christ as given to him through REVELATION.

(Galatians 1:11,12)

This Board, for the sake of ALL who venture through here is categorized to deal with different groups of people seeking encouragement, Truth and often even correction, teaching and discipline...It caters to those interested in Apologetics, Hermeneutics, Prayer, Encouragement etc etc....There are places where people can go to get away from the argument and debate and there are places FOR argument and debate..These are clearly and concisely mapped out in a rather impressive WebSite.....There are also RULES and requests that need to be adhered to...This board is NOT exclusive as clearly we can see that one slight look to the left of the screen will site YOU as an UNbeleiver...Yet YOU are in here TOO.....

Do not denegrate others in your quest to justify yourself Khalou...You simply become a reflection of the very things profess to stand AGAINST.....

Regards,

Ben.

[khalou]

Grace to you,

Friend Khalou,

You will be the first among this group to lose your faith.

Joh

[khalou]

You will be the first among this group to lose your faith.

Yeah, about that: Are you a prophet now?

If you see pronouncing someone as losing their faith as an insult, then you must think it is a bad thing.

Was is a good thing for you, then? Hmmmmmmmm?

Just don't look too closely at the evidence and you'll be fine.

k

[khalou]

Remember atheists aren't atheists to be spiteful , atheists are atheists because the evidence is not there.

Atheists are atheists because they don't want to be "shackled" by moral dilemnas

I thought we've gone over this before. You can't really accuse atheists of being immoral or not law abiding as the statistics show that atheists comprise less of the prison population as a percentage as compared to society and stay married longer than theists. (Check Gallup)

Now to answer your charge of not wanting to be shackled that is simply not the case. Christianity is the best game in town if it were true. Come on you tow the line for a short period here on earth and Kazam! you live forever with no worries. It's a piece of cake. Who would deny that offer? No, you will find that most atheists were once involved in religion and after trying to validate what was put to them found the evidence as not being supportable. You will also find that most atheists are far more learned in Christianity than most "born agains" or Evangelicals.

atheism is a convenient religion where you make all the rules and every person is a law unto themself.

I don't doubt that the average atheist has greater knowledge of the history of various religions since atheism is more of an intellectual pursuit than spiritual.

But I'm curious about what you have tried to validate and found unsupportable?

.

No. Christianity is a conveinient religion where you make all the rules and every person is a law unto themselves.

The Holy Spirit tells you one thing, and tells another Christian something different. Know why? Because interpretation isn't a very good way to determine truth.

Atheism isn't a religion at all. Well, unless bald is a hair color.

k

[redeemed098]

Khalou,

Being a "good person" in the sight of God, is about a whole lot more than "NOT" being BAD....

How many of these "good" people you speak of are sharing the gospel of Christ with anyone....???

You can feed a hungry mouth and clothe a naked body and even provide shelter for those who have NONE....But what have you REALLY given them if in all of this, you have not given them the "True Bread from heaven." Who when you eat of it shall never hunger again, or the true Living Water, of which when you drink of it, you shall never thirst again. What have you done towards a persons Spiritual well being when all you have done is fed an empty physical stomach...?

They need BOTH....Anything LESS than the gospel is signing their eventual death warrant yourself.

If it was about who gives the most to charities, then Opera would probably be right up there, and in great favour with God..If it was about who is seen in the eyes of the world as being the most righteous then you would probably have a pretty big debate to sort that one out...

The point is that without the gospel of Christ who holds the words of eternal life...all you have really offered a person is a few extra years, whilst leaving their eternity UNDONE.

The greatest distraction to a mans salvation is his belief in himSELF and his OWN goodness. A man will believe ANYTHING so long as it doesnt call him an unsaved and condemned sinner. A man is too busy marching along encompassed in his own "goodness" to see that he is living his life in the SELF belief that he is too "Good" to be damned.

"Unless a man Repents, he shall perish." These are words often NOT quoted by those who like to quote Jesus....

"Unless a man is born again, he shall not see the kingdom of God."

Words of Truth than no opinion from the past, present or future can ever hope to alter. Opinion is LESS than Truth. That is what MAKES it opinion in the first place and NOT Truth. Let me leave you with two startling revelations about the person of JESUS...

1. Never ONCE did Jesus state an OPINION....He spoke always "I tell you the TRUTH"

2. Jesus never ONCE apologised for a single word he spoke. Because it WAS Truth.

Best you listen to what he has to say. And by listening I am talking about hearing with a RIGHT attitude....Not just listening.

Something to ponder.

Regards,

Ben.

[khalou]

Grace to you,

Atheism is not a religion.

re