Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

It is probably impossible for you to understand atheism. I can relate.

But you define your own morality as surely as an atheist does. Can you tell me that Christians all share the same answer to every moral question? No, you can't. It is a myth that there is some sort of Christian Morality that all Christians share. Each one of us decides what to do by situational awareness.

The only difference is that there is a myth that permeates America that the Bible has answers to any moral dilemma. It doesn't, and it is easily proven.

You want to know what Christian Morality is? It is that each and every person is guilty of crimes that should lead to eternal death. That is Christian Morality.

If you want to decide that Gay Marriage should be illegal, then you have to determine how it differs from your own sin. Good luck with that. If you want to determine that embryonic stem cell research should be illegal, then you have to determine how it differs from your own sin. Good luck with that as well.

Again Khalou, I believe you suffer from the dreaded disease of Relativism. The worst kind of Realtivism is Moral Relativism. It leaves you at the Mercy of mankind. Mankind is alltogether incapable of making moral Judgments.

The True Christian defers to God and His Word. It is our moral compass in a world run amok with Relativism.

We don't make Judgments, Gods Word makes the Judgment. You are either found believing it or not. No one said any Christian is better than any other man. The difference is that we are forgiven.

PLEASE! At least admit that Christians are just as likely to pick and choose what's okay and what's not according to their own opinion as atheists.

Nope, I defer to God. I'm way too sinful to figure it out on my own.

Peace,

Dave

[khalou]

"Interestingly, the Hebrews never believed in a messiah like Jesus, never believed in a devil, never believed in hell, and certainly never believed in pagan stories of a God-Man that died for the sins of the world.

They still don't to this day."

You must not have ever talked to a Jew who believed in Jesus as Messiah then.

I have. I wasn't talking about Jews who believe that now. I was talking about Abraham, David, Moses, Noah, people like that.

None of them had ever heard of a devil or hell.

k

How do you know they hadnt??

How do I know? Well, because they hadn't, I guess. The ideas of a devil or hell crept in after the Babylonian captivity which took the intellectuals, which included the priesthood, to Babylon where such things were believed in.

You think that they believed in such things? Maybe I should ask you, then, how do you know they had?

k

The Book of Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible. The first 2 chapters include conversations between God and satan. Satan means adversary (amongst other meanings). Whoever wrote Job was well aware of an adversary of God. The may not have 'classifeid' it as "the devil" but they were aware of a fallen angel who was opposed to God and mankind.

David was aware of Sheol.

The book of Jude in the NT records a consversation (well a dispute) between Archangel Micheal and Satan over the body of Moses. These passages in the book of Jude about this dispute are taken from The book of Enoch, which is not a canonical book of the Bible (though some scholars believe it should be) but has its roots and authorship deep into the early biblical times. Again, the Book of enoch records the adversary; the devil or satan.

Although the beliefs of the devil/sheol are not to prevelant in most of the OT writings, they certainly knew about Sheol, and satan. And these writings ie the book of Job, Enoch and the Psalms of David which mention Sheol a couple times, were well before the Babylonian period

Hope this helps

Jai Patel

The ancient Hebrews never believe what you're telling me. You don't get to change that just because you want to, you know. I have had many meaningful conversations with Christians who are well educated in history that assure me that God didn't reveal the nature of Satan to the Hebrews of the time. If you are a historian of any sort, you need to publish a paper, because you would be accepted as a trailblazer among them.

Did you miss my post about these things?

Satan in Job was an emissary of the God of Abraham who brought both good and evil. Nothing happened to a man except by the will of God. This Satan was a member of God's court and was loyal to God. David held that census because of Satan in one version in the Bible, and because of God Himself in an earlier version. Those ancient Hebrews believed that no supernatural entity was capable of disobeying God. God is all powerful according to them.

You need to read more.

k

Hello K

Thank you for your reply

As far as i read in the Bible, particularly the book of Job, there was a specific day when the sons of God (meaning the fallen angels) had to present themselves infornt of the LORD, and even God asked Satan "where have you come form?" (Job 1.6-7). I dont see anywhere that this indicates satan was a member of Gods court. In fact he was summoned to Gods court and told to give a report about his activites. Nowhere is satan a loyal member of GodsCourt/Heaven since Genesis 3.14 when the serpent {satan} is cursed by God to crawl on its belly feeding off the dust of the earth (a reference to create disharmony between God and man). So our sources from the Bible clearly show satan is not an active member of Gods Court.

As i read thourgh the Bible, although the direct nature of satan isnt revealed completely until Jesus arrives, you can clearly see satans 'handiwork' lurking in the background: E.g tempting Adam & Eve to sin, God brings the promise of the Messiah (Gen 3.15). satan doesnt know the Messiah will be from a Jewish background, only that He will be born form mankind, so satan proceeds to contaminate the human-race with the 'sons-of-God' or Nephilim {race of unknown origin) during Gen 6. GOd destroys all the human race, save Noah and family, for its violence and contamination (of the human race and genepool) because of inter-breeding with this Nephilim race.... LATER: Next God reveals the Messianic line through Abraham, so satan creates disharmony with the birth of Ishmael. Yet God allows the birth of Isaac to carry on the Messianic line. Then we can go through the birth of Moses: satan through Egypt's Pharoah gives orders for all male Israelites babies to be killed, yet Moses is saved as a baby. Moses gives the Law which is eventually to be fullfilled perfectly through the Messiah, and Moses predicts the coming of Jesus (Duet 18.15-18) This is the first idea to the Hebrews that God will give them someone better than Moses, a 'super' Prophet in the later times. Thus after the Judges and the battles and satans attempts to 'disqualify' the Messianic line through the Israelites behaviour (chasing after idols and pagan religions that involved human sacrifice, sexual rituals, etc) God allows Kings to Rule over Israel, and Judah. If you read through Chronicles and Kings, Apart from King David- who was still carrying the Messianic Line- and a few others, many kings went against Gods Will. THis is also satan working behind the scenes to stop the Messiah being born? Certain kings were killed and even cursed that were involved in the Messianic line and this does all boil down to satan working behind the scenes to stop the Messiah from being born... yet God always provided an 'escape' from a certain king or person from the Messianic Line.... Can you see the pattern devoping? God states the Messiah will be born from Mankind, then from Abrahams descent, then from a specific tribe (Judah) then from a specific line of Kings (King David, etc.. Each time God reveals more specifics about where the Messiah will come from, satan narrows down his attacks onto those specifics... yet God is always infront and there is alwasy someone from the Messianic Line who 'got away' in order that this line will be protected. And indeed it was all the way to Mary and Joseph. So as you can see, although satans nature wasnt revealed more throroughly until the N.T, his plans and his evil intents to go against Gods will have always been the same from the beginning. (So how is satan being loyal to God in light of this?)

Im sure you have had many meaningful and intellectual conversations with Christians. Yet i do not know they background of these Christians. Atheists are more likely to speak to liberal Christians as they are more inclined to agree with Atheists on issues such as scholarship, denial of authorship of certain books, etc. So if you could be so kind to point out sources i will take up your offer " to read more"

God Bless

Jai

I'm only saying one thing and one thing only with regard to a fallen angel in the Old Testament and that is that the Hebrews of the time didn't have any idea about the concept, and still don't believe in it. I'm referring to their belief at the time, not your current intrepretation. They believed that the Satan in Job was one of God's loyal servants. Whoever wrote the story meant in that way. That's all.

k

Edited October 15, 2006 by khalou

[khalou]

Grace to you,

Friend Khalou,

You will be the first among this group to lose your faith.

Joh

[Floatingaxe]

They believed that the Satan in Job was one of God's loyal servants. Whoever wrote the story meant in that way. That's all.

And where do you get that idea from??

[khalou]

Grace to you,

QUOTE(Matthitjah @ Oct 14 2006, 07:31 AM)

Grace to you,

Friend Khalou,

QUOTE

You will be the first among this group to lose your faith.

Joh 8:7

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Who is Jesus Christ to you Khalou?

Peace,

Dave

Great question.

First and foremost, Jesus was a person I wish more Christians would listen to. The farther from Jesus Christians get, the more willing they seem to be to cast stones.

So Jesus is a Good person? What if He were a liar?

You haven't really answered the question.

Is He merely a Good Teacher or is He God?

Or is He the greatest liar and charlatan known to mankind?

Can He Truly be both?

Peace,

Dave

If you want to know what I REALLY think, I must ask that no one chastise me for saying it here. After all, you asked- twice!

I think that there were many sects within the Jewish faith at the time of Jesus. I think there were other Rabbis like Jesus at the head of these sects. We know that miracles were pretty normal at the time, and that there were many that could perform them. I truly believe that Jesus was very much Jewish, and held the deepest respect for the Jewish religion. There is lots and lots of evidence that this is true.

I believe that Saul of Tarsus joined the group after the loss of their leader, and changed his name to Paul. I believe that Paul wanted to bring the religion to gentiles, and I don't believe Paul really treated Jesus as a physical person when he started his churches. Paul seemed to be speaking about a Mystery religion like the ones the gentiles were used to. James and Peter's church disagreed with Paul's treatment of Jesus' truths. It sounds a lot like they didn't like the idea that Paul was trying to make it a non-Jewish religion that was quite outside of the traditions of the Torah, which Jesus absolutely upheld.

The people that wrote the Gospels were not Jewish, nor were they eyewitnesses. Even Christian Biblical scholars believe this. Instead, they were re-writing the life of Jesus in order to fit in with this new version of the religion. Of all the gospels, the only ones that were canonized were the ones that went along with this new ideology, and were included in the Bible by the same non-Jews that decided on Dec 25 as the day of His birth, and that Sunday should be the Sabbath. What was that, like in the second century CE?? It's no wonder that the Jews couldn't believe their ears when they heard about Christianity. One of the Ten Commandments, perhaps the easiest one, is to simply remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, yet these people actually changed it!

All of the other gospels that have been found that didn't make it into the cannon, including the documentation of the oral tradition of the sayings of Jesus, are quite Jewish.

Meanwhile, the Gospels actually make mistakes about the Hebrew traditions of Jesus' time, and even geographical mistakes as well.

k

[Floatingaxe]

Grace to you,

QUOTE(Matthitjah @ Oct 14 2006, 07:31 AM)

Grace to you,

Friend Khalou,

QUOTE

You will be the first among this group to lose your faith.

Joh 8:7

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Who is Jesus Christ to you Khalou?

Peace,

Dave

Great question.

First and foremost, Jesus was a person I wish more Christians would listen to. The farther from Jesus Christians get, the more willing they seem to be to cast stones.

So Jesus is a Good person? What if He were a liar?

You haven't really answered the question.

Is He merely a Good Teacher or is He God?

Or is He the greatest liar and charlatan known to mankind?

Can He Truly be both?

Peace,

Dave

If you want to know what I REALLY think, I must ask that no one chastise me for saying it here. After all, you asked- twice!

I think that there were many sects within the Jewish faith at the time of Jesus. I think there were other Rabbis like Jesus at the head of these sects. We know that miracles were pretty normal at the time, and that there were many that could perform them. I truly believe that Jesus was very much Jewish, and held the deepest respect for the Jewish religion. There is lots and lots of evidence that this is true.

I believe that Saul of Tarsus joined the group after the loss of their leader, and changed his name to Paul. I believe that Paul wanted to bring the religion to gentiles, and I don't believe Paul really treated Jesus as a physical person when he started his churches. Paul seemed to be speaking about a Mystery religion like the ones the gentiles were used to. James and Peter's church disagreed with Paul's treatment of Jesus' truths. It sounds a lot like they didn't like the idea that Paul was trying to make it a non-Jewish religion that was quite outside of the traditions of the Torah, which Jesus absolutely upheld.

The people that wrote the Gospels were not Jewish, nor were they eyewitnesses. Even Christian Biblical scholars believe this. Instead, they were re-writing the life of Jesus in order to fit in with this new version of the religion. Of all the gospels, the only ones that were canonized were the ones that went along with this new ideology, and were included in the Bible by the same non-Jews that decided on Dec 25 as the day of His birth, and that Sunday should be the Sabbath. What was that, like in the second century CE?? It's no wonder that the Jews couldn't believe their ears when they heard about Christianity. One of the Ten Commandments, perhaps the easiest one, is to simply remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, yet these people actually changed it!

All of the other gospels that have been found that didn't make it into the cannon, including the documentation of the oral tradition of the sayings of Jesus, are quite Jewish.

Meanwhile, the Gospels actually make mistakes about the Hebrew traditions of Jesus' time, and even geographical mistakes as well.

k

Well, my learned friend, that is all hogwash. There are no mistakes in the Bible---anywhere.

Cannon is spelled , "canon".

[khalou]

They believed that the Satan in Job was one of God's loyal servants. Whoever wrote the story meant in that way. That's all.

And where do you get that idea from??

Intense study of the facts of the matter where I never assume anything, but just go with where the facts take me.

Come on! Even Christian scholars believe this based on the facts. Why do you want to beat me up on something like this?

k

[Floatingaxe]

They believed that the Satan in Job was one of God's loyal servants. Whoever wrote the story meant in that way. That's all.

And where do you get that idea from??

Intense study of the facts of the matter where I never assume anything, but just go with where the facts take me.

Come on! Even Christian scholars believe this based on the facts. Why do you want to beat me up on something like this?

k

Never met anyone who believed that...never.

[khalou]

They believed that the Satan in Job was one of God's loyal servants. Whoever wrote the story meant in that way. That's all.

And where do you get that idea from??

Intense study of the facts of the matter where I never assume anything, but just go with where the facts take me.

Come on! Even Christian scholars believe this based on the facts. Why do you want to beat me up on something like this?

k

Edit link*

[Floatingaxe]

Good thing the Episcopal Church isn't the say-so! They are slicing and dicing to suit themselves for some reason. It's all denominational stuff. I don't mean to be overly obdurate here, but why, oh why, do you even care what they think?