Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[LightofJesus]

I can not speak for the board K but I can for myself it does matter to me that you are no longer a christian, but it matters because the reason you are no longer a christian is the fault of christians. For myself who has never meant you I humbly apologize for failing you and any other who has walked away and I will pray that God will guide me to be a better brother sister and/or friend to those who seek and for you I will pray that you will see we are not all unfeeling and over zealous to the exclusion of others. God Bless

No, it wasn't other Christians.

It happened over a period of time, for basically three reasons that each took awhile to take hold.

Each time, ironically, it was my faith in God that led me to the conclusions I drew until, believe it or not, I didn't think that God would want me to believe in Christianity.

Of course, once that happened, 'twas a hop, skip, and a jump to "how do I know there is a God", and, from there, "I don't".

So you can imagine how interested I am in discovering how Christians maintain their faith in light of these issues. So far, it seems to be because they want to. Responses like "who told you that?" indicate to me that the particular Christan that asked it hadn't ever heard the argument before. But instead of researching the source, and coming up with a fact or two about why it is either wrong, or based on unproven data, they simply give me a Bible verse that tries to dispute it- or worse- a Bible verse that just says that man's wisdom is folly.

I will never believe that a God, any God, wishes people on earth to do things this way.

Diseases are caused by germs.

No, they are caused by evil.

No, look- this germ is shaped in such a way that it can dock with cells and block important nutrients produced naturally in the body. And this germ over here actually docks and changes the cells function. We can make medicines that can either surround these germs so they can't dock with the cells, or block the cell-transforming germs by creating a neutral docking station blocker that prevents them from docking.

In the Bible, verse whatever of book so and so, says that "You are wrong".

I know, I've seen that, but lookey here! This actually happens!

It's a bad example, I know, because the believe happens to be wrong in it. But what about-

Have you read The De Vinci Code?

That evil book?

Well, it sounds interesting.

It's wrong.

Why?

Because it says things that are wrong according to the Bible.

Well, you don't need to Bible to show that the assertions of The De Vinci Code are incorrect, but it would be nice to hear them instead of "I don't believe that, so it's wrong".

Any argument that is based on observation or evidence should be argued with observation or evidence. If I say that there is no God, then you don't have to use evidence to argue that I'm wrong because I can't present any to support my own argument in the first place. But If I say that there is no God because of "evidence", then you are free to use evidence against me, and you will win, because any evidence I might think I have won't be logically supported.

I've written a lot to make my point here. I don't believe a God would want people to abandon thinking in their interactions with others, or to rely on a lesser standard of proof in physical debates than others might.

k

k

Hi again. You said in a part of your post that you thought God would not want you to believe in Christianity. Guess what you are right. I don't believe in Christianity. That involves believing in man. I believe in God and His direction not in what man can tell me what is true or not true. All this science talk is really out of my league, but I do know God gave us brains to use and He also gave us talents to use in areas He wants us strong. Anyway as far as science I do believe that the FACTS we find are revealed only by God Who wants certain things revealed. Now when it comes to Theories, that is just what they are, not facts just something someone has decided needs to be expounded upon and therefore until there is facts to back it up it remains a theory so if that is true then evolution has not been proven a fact. Hows that?

[Guest]

Thank You All For A Wonderful Discussion!

"Faith" comes up there from time to time.

I'll drop a few thoughts into this river of the mind, thank you.

Faith is hope.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, ....." (Hebrews 11:1 )

Faith is evidence.

"..... the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1 )

Faith is evidence!

Faith, God's telescope to see the evidence of God at the far-side of Creation!

Faith, God's microscope to see the evidence of God deep within Creation!

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." (Hebrews 11:3 )

Please God? Yes.

Faith, the hands that cleave to Jesus. Jesus, the ladder to God.

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6 )

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 )

I have faith. So, should I strut? No!

Faith is an act of God. Faith is an act of mercy. Faith is a Gift from God.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" (Ephesians 2:8 )

"Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:9 )

I'm just a little man, just the tiniest dot at the end of a huge Universe.

Can I really understand God?

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 55:8 )

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:9 )

Oh no!

I'm not only a speck in a vast cosmos but I'm too simple to grasp the thoughts of God.

My little man-mind will never perceive God's ways.

What to do?

"The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple." (Psalms 19:7 )

Ah! Read The Bible (The law) through the spectacles of faith.

[secondeve]

I tend to think of it this way. Ultimately, nobody has faith in God. What you have faith in is your own ability to discern that God exists.

You still have to have faith to take that first step. As you start to learn however, your faith becomes stronger, but so does your understanding, and therefore, you are no longer "blind".

I hope this explains it ok.

I may not be doing a very good job of explaining myself.

This, to me, seems a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg argument. How can you decide to have faith before you've put faith in the idea? How can you put faith in the idea before you've decided to put faith in the idea? And so on down infinite ladders of repitition.

I still hold with my comment about blindness, though. If you were arguing with an athiest who listened to all your arguments, but who refused to even attempt to draw any conclusions that maybe God does or even could exist, you might well, with reason, refer to them as 'blind,' because no matter how willing they were to hear, they were never willing to abandon the core premise of their belief. In that sense, while they might have learned a lot from you, they haven't been thinking critically all round - they've cordoned off a little corner of their beliefs with a sign that says 'do not touch.' To me, the humour of any human being doing this once and for all is obvious - God can never be proven or disproven, so everything else is human perception, which can be faulty and biased. Nonetheless, though, we all do it to a certain extent. I'm no trying to pass judgement on that - just to explain why I have the perception of faith that I do. Does that make sense?

And I'm understanding you fine, unless you think I've misunderstood you.

[Guest yod]

I might have mentioned this earlier...not sure.

"Faith" only means "strong trust"

If you have faith in Yeshua, you will trust what He says with all your being. If you have faith in science, you will strongly trust what it tells you. If you have faith in your religion, your faith is misplaced.

Faith isn't complicated at all

[khalou]

Well then, according to you, any spirit that says that evolution is wrong is a false one. Any spirit that says that the Hebrew faith at any time included a fallen angel or an eternal place of punishment is a false one.

Kind of narrows it down some, don'tcha think?

HUH?

You kind of lost me there.

I don't believe in the "theory" of evolution. And the Hebrew faith does include a "fallen angel" (Satan).

By saying we are to "test the spirits" means we are to apply a little thought.

But just because there are things we can figure out, there are many things that have yet to be revealed to us - therefore, we need to take it on faith that they will be revealed to us.

I hope I am explaining this ok.

Evolution-

Then you need to explain to me why God created his world with insurmountable evidence that the species occurred by evolution. I am momentarily agreeing with you that God did, indeed, create everything six thousand years ago. I don't suppose you understand what evidence there is in support of evolution, or you wouldn't say such a thing as "I don't believe in it". That's okay. But you're talking to someone who does. Science has been trying to disprove evolution since it didn't even know about DNA, RNA, or so many things that could have proven it false, that it is now pretty much convinced that evolution is how speciation occurred.

So, answer that question if you can. "Why did God create a world that shows such evidence without any observable means to show that it didn't?"

Hebrews and a "fallen angel" (or hell)

There is no doubt that the Hebrews in the Old Testament didn't know about the fallen angel or hell in the way that Christianity describes them.

Why did God not tell them? Any claims that my question isn't based on facts will have to be supported by facts that I'm wrong, and, so far, all have been based on modern Christianity and have been based on faith and not the facts. God created the facts of the matter if He exists, and all support the evidence that those people didn't know about such things.

These are my questions. They are no longer "am I right?" because all arguments that I'm not have been of a faithful nature according to current Christian tradition. They are now "Why did God create the earth and His religion with insurmountable evidence that what Christians currently believe is wrong?"

k

[khalou]

Well then, according to you, any spirit that says that evolution is wrong is a false one. Any spirit that says that the Hebrew faith at any time included a fallen angel or an eternal place of punishment is a false one.

Kind of narrows it down some, don'tcha think?

k

I have been traveling too much to keep up with this thread....sorry

But evolution as it is being taught is wrong. Insisting that an unproved theory is true would be false. There is still no proof that a species has ever evolved into another species.

Regarding fallen angels, Sheol, and other spiritual concepts...these are all progressive revelation. Like the concept of Messiah was not revealed in a single instance but over much time.....and who He is can also be progressive revelation to one who has read everything the Bible says about Him.

.

Evolution-

You don't have any idea what evidence supports evolution, do you?

Just for fun, why don't you postulate why God would create an earth that shows such overwhelming evidence that evolution is correct? Why would He do that?

The Messiah-

Why has the Old Testament been changed by the Christians in order to make room for the Messianic justification of Jesus? Wasn't it enough just to say that the Hebrews were wrong about that? Why misinterpret words and change scriptures just to make Jesus seem more likely a candidate?

k

[khalou]

I can not speak for the board K but I can for myself it does matter to me that you are no longer a christian, but it matters because the reason you are no longer a christian is the fault of christians. For myself who has never meant you I humbly apologize for failing you and any other who has walked away and I will pray that God will guide me to be a better brother sister and/or friend to those who seek and for you I will pray that you will see we are not all unfeeling and over zealous to the exclusion of others. God Bless

No, it wasn't other Christians.

It happened over a period of time, for basically three reasons that each took awhile to take hold.

Each time, ironically, it was my faith in God that led me to the conclusions I drew until, believe it or not, I didn't think that God would want me to believe in Christianity.

Of course, once that happened, 'twas a hop, skip, and a jump to "how do I know there is a God", and, from there, "I don't".

So you can imagine how interested I am in discovering how Christians maintain their faith in light of these issues. So far, it seems to be because they want to. Responses like "who told you that?" indicate to me that the particular Christan that asked it hadn't ever heard the argument before. But instead of researching the source, and coming up with a fact or two about why it is either wrong, or based on unproven data, they simply give me a Bible verse that tries to dispute it- or worse- a Bible verse that just says that man's wisdom is folly.

I will never believe that a God, any God, wishes people on earth to do things this way.

Diseases are caused by germs.

No, they are caused by evil.

No, look- this germ is shaped in such a way that it can dock with cells and block important nutrients produced naturally in the body. And this germ over here actually docks and changes the cells function. We can make medicines that can either surround these germs so they can't dock with the cells, or block the cell-transforming germs by creating a neutral docking station blocker that prevents them from docking.

In the Bible, verse whatever of book so and so, says that "You are wrong".

I know, I've seen that, but lookey here! This actually happens!

It's a bad example, I know, because the believe happens to be wrong in it. But what about-

Have you read The De Vinci Code?

That evil book?

Well, it sounds interesting.

It's wrong.

Why?

Because it says things that are wrong according to the Bible.

Well, you don't need to Bible to show that the assertions of The De Vinci Code are incorrect, but it would be nice to hear them instead of "I don't believe that, so it's wrong".

Any argument that is based on observation or evidence should be argued with observation or evidence. If I say that there is no God, then you don't have to use evidence to argue that I'm wrong because I can't present any to support my own argument in the first place. But If I say that there is no God because of "evidence", then you are free to use evidence against me, and you will win, because any evidence I might think I have won't be logically supported.

I've written a lot to make my point here. I don't believe a God would want people to abandon thinking in their interactions with others, or to rely on a lesser standard of proof in physical debates than others might.

k

k

Hi again. You said in a part of your post that you thought God would not want you to believe in Christianity. Guess what you are right. I don't believe in Christianity. That involves believing in man. I believe in God and His direction not in what man can tell me what is true or not true. All this science talk is really out of my league, but I do know God gave us brains to use and He also gave us talents to use in areas He wants us strong. Anyway as far as science I do believe that the FACTS we find are revealed only by God Who wants certain things revealed. Now when it comes to Theories, that is just what they are, not facts just something someone has decided needs to be expounded upon and therefore until there is facts to back it up it remains a theory so if that is true then evolution has not been proven a fact. Hows that?

If you really did believe as you say, then you would be willing to list your religious facts as theories, because you could be wrong.

Think about this- and think long and hard-

There is NOWHERE NEAR as much evidence in support of the theory of gravity as there is in the theory of evolution. The ONLY REASON you have a problem with the theory of evolution is because you perceive that it goes against your faith. Evolution is on MUCH HARDER ground than that of gravity, but you have no faith-based problem with the theory of gravity, so you don't argue about it.

I want to hear you argue your problems with the theory of gravity. I don't suppose they will be forthcoming because you don't care about science. You don't care about the scientific method or the definition of a theory, or which theories are more substantial than others or anything but your own faith. Your God seems to want you to remain ignorant on this, and you seem to think that He is glad when you show your ignorance.

I can't worship a God like that no matter how hard I might try. If He created this universe, then He created the evidence that science uncovers. If He wants people like me to burn eternally in Hell just because I'm interested in science and curious about things, then He isn't God in the first place.

Either that, or He isn't a God worth worshiping.

Either that or all of you are wrong.

k

[khalou]

I might have mentioned this earlier...not sure.

"Faith" only means "strong trust"

If you have faith in Yeshua, you will trust what He says with all your being. If you have faith in science, you will strongly trust what it tells you. If you have faith in your religion, your faith is misplaced.

Faith isn't complicated at all

Whis is exatcly why Karl Popper introduced falsification into science. No more faith in science- period.

k

[Guest yod]

I want to hear you argue your problems with the theory of gravity. I don't suppose they will be forthcoming because you don't care about science. You don't care about the scientific method or the definition of a theory, or which theories are more substantial than others or anything but your own faith. Your God seems to want you to remain ignorant on this, and you seem to think that He is glad when you show your ignorance.

I can't worship a God like that no matter how hard I might try. If He created this universe, then He created the evidence that science uncovers. If He wants people like me to burn eternally in Hell just because I'm interested in science and curious about things, then He isn't God in the first place.

Either that, or He isn't a God worth worshiping.

Either that or all of you are wrong.

k

I'm not sure how it got to this point (been away from a computer for too long) but I've got no problem with Creation taking billions of years. I think it's entirely likely because of the evidence...and it doesn't contradict the biblical account in any way because the word "yom" (which is translated as "day") is an undetermined amount of time that could be six nanoseconds or 57 trillion years....

But there is still no evidence of a species becoming another species so the classic version of evolution has a lot more holes in it than gravity. On the other hand, every time I drop a rock it falls....

I totally commend your desire to know the truth. It will set you free when you find it.

Search, knock, and open....

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Kahlou,

"Why did God create the earth and His religion with insurmountable evidence that what Christians currently believe is wrong?"

Although I don't agree with your summations. My answer would be, Trust.

The Messiah-

Why has the Old Testament been changed by the Christians in order to make room for the Messianic justification of Jesus? Wasn't it enough just to say that the Hebrews were wrong about that? Why misinterpret words and change scriptures just to make Jesus seem more likely a candidate?

I can't worship a God like that no matter how hard I might try. If He created this universe, then He created the evidence that science uncovers. If He wants people like me to burn eternally in Hell just because I'm interested in science and curious about things, then He isn't God in the first place.

Either that, or He isn't a God worth worshiping.

Either that or all of you are wrong.

Interesting. After reading you for about a week. It would appear that you talked yourself out of Faith. That you felt there had to be something more that God was hiding from you.

However my question would be this.

What Truth was it that you have found that made it clear to you that there was something more than His Broken Body and Poured out Blood?

Peace,

Dave