Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[Ovedya]

Absolute faith in Christianity is not good for human beings mentally, spiritually, or emotionally.

Well I'm certainly glad that you're no authority on the matter. In fact, studies have proven just the opposite of what you claim here.

[khalou]

How can a true believer turn from God?

It was a number of things but at the heart of were two things, he was an innerrant, bible believer and he is honest to a fault. To put it in a nutshell he painted himself in a corner with the Bible. I could make a list of questions that kept popping into his mind as he read the bible over and over and over but I won't because at this forum there are a lot of "innerrantists" and I wouldn't want to cause anyone to stumble the way he did. I've always been a liberal Christian; I'm not a bible innerrancy person so these questions didn't "throw" me the way they did him. He started spending a lot of time at Jewish websites asking questions right before he totally deconverted. I think those Left Behind books started the initial "unraveling" and the Jewish forums just finished it for him. -- I've prayed and tried to get him to attend my church [Prebysterian] and he won't do it. I think he's mad because he feels like he's been somehow "tricked". I told him I thought he was mad at God and he said he's not mad at God cause there isn't a God to be mad at; that people created God. I've just dropped it since then and thought it might be better to give him some time to "chill out" and regroup. I did ask him to keep his newfound atheism to himself and not be spouting off to the kids about it and he has, so far, done that for me.

He's not dead yet so it's never too late.

All prayers would be appreciated.

I'm touched by this. It sounds so very much like my own story.

I'll tell you this- His anger will disappear soon. Remember one thing, he is now living in a vastly different universe than he once did. Once upon a time, there was a God, and Jesus was right there with him all the time. Good would eventually prevail over evil, and he was unconditionally loved by the creator of the universe.

Now, he is truly alone as all atheists are. The ones that have always been atheists don't have to go through this incredible transition of universes. Your husband's anger is only against those who never told him what he now knows about things. There are seminaries where preachers learn all sorts of historical things and I find it hard to believe they don't also learn everything he found out. Why didn't they tell him (and me) about that stuff?

And the other anger is against Christians who can't answer his questions. "How can you still believe when this and this and this is true?" All he gets in reply is "That isn't true. Haven't you read the Bible?" He KNOWS he's read the Bible, he KNOWS what they're saying, he's asking questions about other things that 90% of Christians have never bothered to learn before.

What he discovers is that the only reason his new information doesn't get answers, and doesn't bother most Christians, is that they simply ignore it.

That would make anyone angry.

But his anger will subside as he becomes used to his new universe. The only thing that could possibly save him is something that just doesn't exist- answers to his questions.

k

[khalou]

How can a true beleiver turn from God?

It was a number of things but at the heart of were two things, he was an innerrant, bible believer and he is honest to a fault. To put it in a nutshell he painted himself in a corner with the Bible. I could make a list of questions that kept popping into his mind as he read the bible over and over and over but I won't because at this forum there are a lot of "innerrantists" and I wouldn't want to cause anyone to stumble the way he did. I've always been a liberal Christian; I'm not a bible innerrancy person so these questions didn't "throw" me the way they did him. He started spending a lot of time at Jewish websites asking questions right before he totally deconverted. I think those Left Behind books started the initial "unraveling" and the Jewish forums just finished it for him. -- I've prayed and tried to get him to attend my church [Prebysterian] and he won't do it. I think he's mad because he feels like he's been somehow "tricked". I told him I thought he was mad at God and he said he's not mad at God cause there isn't a God to be mad at; that people created God. I've just dropped it since then and thought it might be better to give him some time to "chill out" and regroup. I did ask him to keep his newfound atheism to himself and not be spouting off to the kids about it and he has, so far, done that for me.

He's not dead yet so it's never too late.

All prayers would be appreciated.

Anti-Hillbilly, as you know, I am a Bible literalist. I would be more than happy to attempt to answer the questions your husband has in relation to the scriptures. I have read the Bible through more than a dozen times, and have found that the so-called errors are not errors at all, but misunderstandings. I would hate for your husband to lose his place in heaven because he simply misunderstood something in the Bible and thought it was a mistake.

Why not try this? Invite him to join Worthy Boards as a non-believer. Then allow him to post his own questions about the Bible in the apologetics section, and allow the members here to try to answer them? He really has nothing to lose. He already has lost his faith, so the worst thing that would happen is he would continue to disbelieve. I doubt that any of the questions that kept popping into his mind are unique, so I wouldn't worry too much that it will cause anyone here to suddenly become a non-believer.

You will only anger him more because you can't answer his questions either.

k

[khalou]

How can a true beleiver turn from God?

It was a number of things but at the heart of were two things, he was an innerrant, bible believer and he is honest to a fault. To put it in a nutshell he painted himself in a corner with the Bible. I could make a list of questions that kept popping into his mind as he read the bible over and over and over but I won't because at this forum there are a lot of "innerrantists" and I wouldn't want to cause anyone to stumble the way he did. I've always been a liberal Christian; I'm not a bible innerrancy person so these questions didn't "throw" me the way they did him. He started spending a lot of time at Jewish websites asking questions right before he totally deconverted. I think those Left Behind books started the initial "unraveling" and the Jewish forums just finished it for him. -- I've prayed and tried to get him to attend my church [Prebysterian] and he won't do it. I think he's mad because he feels like he's been somehow "tricked". I told him I thought he was mad at God and he said he's not mad at God cause there isn't a God to be mad at; that people created God. I've just dropped it since then and thought it might be better to give him some time to "chill out" and regroup. I did ask him to keep his newfound atheism to himself and not be spouting off to the kids about it and he has, so far, done that for me.

He's not dead yet so it's never too late.

All prayers would be appreciated.

Anti-Hillbilly, as you know, I am a Bible literalist. I would be more than happy to attempt to answer the questions your husband has in relation to the scriptures. I have read the Bible through more than a dozen times, and have found that the so-called errors are not errors at all, but misunderstandings. I would hate for your husband to lose his place in heaven because he simply misunderstood something in the Bible and thought it was a mistake.

Why not try this? Invite him to join Worthy Boards as a non-believer. Then allow him to post his own questions about the Bible in the apologetics section, and allow the members here to try to answer them? He really has nothing to lose. He already has lost his faith, so the worst thing that would happen is he would continue to disbelieve. I doubt that any of the questions that kept popping into his mind are unique, so I wouldn't worry too much that it will cause anyone here to suddenly become a non-believer.

Thank you Butero. I think that is a good suggestion but I don't know if he would. He used to post at a couple of Christian websites when he was still a believer. He got very frustrated when he was "booted" off of one board just for asking a few things and was accused of being an atheist posing as a believer at another [ he wasn't at that time, he was just trying to get satisfactory answers ].

I have to approach this delicately though, I feel like I need to give him some time. If he came on here now I'm afraid he'd just cause trouble and be asked to leave. I will keep it in mind though and if the right time presents itself (God willing) I'll bring it up. -- It means a lot to me that you would offer since you and I don't often agree on things.

I think my minister could do wonders for him; he went to college in Kentucky and was ordained in Knoxville Tenn. so they have that "southern thing" in common and I think he'd be able to relate pretty well, coming from a similar background and all. My husband has met him and likes him very much but by the time my husband figured out that Prebysterians aren't hellbound in a handbasket he'd already become a non-believer.

OK Anti-Hillbilly. You know his condition better than I do. One thing you mentioned however is that your husband was booted off one of the boards for asking questions, that he was accused of being an atheist. Here he wouldn't have to pretend to be a Christian. Atheists are welcome to post in the outer court area.

By the way, how long ago was it that your husband decided he was an atheist? I could be wrong, but I would imagine that your husband likely heard someone attacking the Bible, and he began to listen to what they were saying. Over time, those seeds of doubt took root. If a person doesn't have a strong understanding of the Bible, things often appear to be contradictory, when in reality they are not. I would not give up on your husband, because I believe if he could be persuaded to become an unbeliever, there is a good chance he can be brought back to the Lord if his objections can be answered to his satisfaction. I don't claim I can do that, but with the help of the Lord, and the many good folks here at WB, I would sure be willing to give it a try.

You see? I can't imagine what would make him angrier than this. "He didn't have a strong understanding of the Bible" There is nothing wrong with the Bible- the problem is with history and the Hebrews and what they believed. You can't answer those questions because you don't know the answers. If you did, you would have answered mine.

k

[Ovedya]

You will only anger him more because you can't answer his questions either.

k

"To be on a quest is nothing more or less than to become an asker of questions."

If this person is truly seeking, he would not be angered by a single answer to his questions.

[LightofJesus]

k

God has not vanished and He is so calling your name it is almost unreal!! All of us here I know are praying for you, at least I know I am for sure. You cross my heart daily and I know that is only the Lord reminding me to pray for you. You have not strayed far enough that He cannot reach you and He is calling you back khalou He loves us all in spite of our intellect that we think we have over Him or the things we seem to believe in. I have been having a real hard time of it myself this week, grief that has not been dealt with but I cannot and will not let go of the only thing that is solid in my life right now and that is my Lord. He does not ever leave us He cannot according to His promises. That in itself gives me a peace that I cannot explain. You try too hard at your running and I see it very clearly in your intellect. You have let your brain talk too much and pushed God out. Stop and I know you will hear him again khalou!! The word says that the very elect will be decieved and that is all you have done is allowed yourself to be decieved by the lies of the father of lies. I really do not understand why the Lord has put you so heavily on my heart but He has and I continue to pray for you everyday!!!

[khalou]

It's been less than a year. He wasn't listening to non-believers or atheists; he'd have thought that was "satanic" [he thought Satan was hiding behind every rock and tree ready to pounce at any moment], our now 14 yr old was asking some blunt questions when he was in a fundamentalist Christian kindergarden; he's always asked pointed questions; maybe that had something to do with it because this didn't just happen overnight even though it is still a shock. -- No, it had to do with the bible (the OT in particular) and then he wanted to know how we got the bible and he started reading about Christian history (which was pretty bloody) and how the Bible was cannonized etc.; how dispensationalism came about in the 1800s etc. He thought that the NT was written, "on the scene" and when he found out it wasn't he was very quiet for several days. I thought everybody knew that the bible wasn't written or canonized until decades and centuries later...respectively so that's no "big deal" to me although I guess for him it's was like having a rug pulled out from under you.

Do you think I should stop my 14 yr old from reading the OT? For years I would only let him read a Children's Bible version of the OT but now that he's gotten older he's reading the real thing and starting to zero in on some bizarre things in there. He was asking me a lot of X-rated questions relating to those scriptures one day and I don't know if he should be reading it at all especially with what has happened with my husband.

Hello again Anti-Hillbilly,

I agree with you on one thing. I thought everyone knew the Bible wasn't written as events occured as well. The scriptures were written by many differen't authors as God gave them the words to write. For instance, it is believed that Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Old Testament, yet we know he wasn't alive at the time of Adam and Eve. God gave him this knowledge and he wrote it down. The same is the case for the entire Bible. In the case of the gospels, they were written by people that were followers of Christ, but their writings were inspired by the Holy Spirit. In the case of the Apostle Paul, who wrote much of the New Testament, he also received divine revelation from God. The controversy over the cannon is not really as big of a deal as some make it out to be. There were many books that were already accepted by the church as the inspired Word of God, but they hadn't been placed in one book. The decision to place the books we now consider the Holy Bible in it's current order and to divide it into chapter and verse for easy study is hardly a reason to doubt it's innerency.

I really don't know of any reason why your 14 year old reading the Old Testament should be a problem. There really aren't a lot of things I can think of in the Bible that should generate "x-rated" questions. There are things in the scriptures that would cause someone that it inquisitive to ask sincere questions, but there are none I know of that cannot be easily explained. I think confusion occurs when one tries to claim some of the Old Testament scriptures are not really God inspired.

Oh, man, it's just getting worse! The gospels weren't written by followers of Christ and this guy just found that out. If you tell him that, he might explode!

Also, the 14 year old isn't asking only sex related questions- they are about the nature of God. Why would a learned Biblical believer have a problem with his offspring asking about sex related questions about the Bible enough to investigate and lose his faith??

k

Edited October 21, 2006 by khalou

[khalou]

You will only anger him more because you can't answer his questions either.

k

"To be on a quest is nothing more or less than to become an asker of questions."

If this person is truly seeking, he would not be angered by a single answer to his questions.

Okay. Give it a shot.

But if you plan to tell a formerly devout believer that he never really believed, or didn't really understand, and are going to tell him that things that are true aren't, then I don't suppose you are answering his questions.

k

[Ovedya]

You will only anger him more because you can't answer his questions either.

k

"To be on a quest is nothing more or less than to become an asker of questions."

If this person is truly seeking, he would not be angered by a single answer to his questions.

Okay. Give it a shot.

But if you plan to tell a formerly devout believer that he never really believed, or didn't really understand, and are going to tell him that things that are true aren't, then I don't suppose you are answering his questions.

k

Whenever someone believes that truth is purely subjective, then there's really no point in attmpting to dispel his concepts with objective truth. Pilate was such a man - evidenced by his response to Jesus, "What is truth?"

[khalou]

k

God has not vanished and He is so calling your name it is almost unreal!! All of us here I know are praying for you, at least I know I am for sure. You cross my heart daily and I know that is only the Lord reminding me to pray for you. You have not strayed far enough that He cannot reach you and He is calling you back khalou He loves us all in spite of our intellect that we think we have over Him or the things we seem to believe in. I have been having a real hard time of it myself this week, grief that has not been dealt with but I cannot and will not let go of the only thing that is solid in my life right now and that is my Lord. He does not ever leave us He cannot according to His promises. That in itself gives me a peace that I cannot explain. You try too hard at your running and I see it very clearly in your intellect. You have let your brain talk too much and pushed God out. Stop and I know you will hear him again khalou!! The word says that the very elect will be decieved and that is all you have done is allowed yourself to be decieved by the lies of the father of lies. I really do not understand why the Lord has put you so heavily on my heart but He has and I continue to pray for you everyday!!!

You are giving me a blueprint of what happened to me in your own life.

That peace of which you speak is nice, isn't it? Even in light of your situation, you have His peace that passes all understanding. It seems like a gift, but it is not.

Your unresolved grief need never be resolved because of the peace you've been granted. I don't know the circumstances of your grief, but mine was profound and lasted for years and years. Continual punishment at an emotional level that no person with which I was dealing had ever seen before, and they were professionals in the realm in which I was dealing. Yet I was at peace.

That was because of my absolute faith in the Lord.

Guess what? I succeeded. I went through it where others couldn't. I lasted because of my faith in God, and the peace He provided. Everyone told me, especially Christians, that I didn't have to endure this. It was superhuman. But I had faith in God, and he granted me peace. Every personal attack at my heart, every insult to my person, every emotional slash, all were left at the Cross, and peace was granted.

But I discovered something. None of it was left at the cross. It was all in a cage that I'd built myself through the sheer will of my faith. It was inside of me- rotting my ability to experience any sort of human joy. I'd become a machine. Those weak Christians had been right. I had no business believing in any of it to that extent. The Bible is written for those who can't really live up to it's expectations, because there is forgiveness for those who can't, but nothing for those who actually take it seriously but emotional impairment at a clinical level.

That wasn't the reason God disappeared, but it was the start of my questions. Had I belonged to any other faith on the planet, it couldn't have happened. No other faith tells us that we are incapable of being too faithful, so we aren't supposed to worry about it.

Think about it. All the time I've been here all I've heard about my fall from grace is that I didn't really measure up! That I lost faith, or that I didn't believe enough, or I became angry at God. It is almost laughable! The absolute, exact opposite is more the truth.

k