Jesus-myth or "copycat savior" myth refuted.

[anti-hillbilly]

It does sound complicated; very complicated. I think my husband gave a similarily complicated answer to my son at the time, to which he replied: "That's stupid". That was the end of that discussion.

As for the Darwin thing I would believe the daughter over some Christian lady who wasn't there. I think my husband said there were other witnesses at Darwin's death to substaniate what the daughter said too. I think the daughter had publically refuted the bogus claim in newpapers shortly after it happened. You can see where the lady that started this rumor would have had an agenda; pretty much like you being diverted away from the book of Mormon or the Apocrypha. -- My husband touched on the Apocrypha too saying that if these Catholics accepted the Apocrypha and the cannonized bible we have now how can we say they were "divinely inspired by the canon" but wrong about the Apocrypha? Wouldn't they have been divinely inspired about the Apocrypha too? He was also perturbed that they assigned "names" of authorship to the gospel accounts; he'd always thought Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote them [so did I] but he said they were authored annonymously by "God only knows who". He remarked that for all we know it could have been a "Jim Jones" or "David Koresh" type person that wrote them and not a "Billy Graham" or a "Pope John Paul" type person. He also said the early church tried to destroy all those writings that disagree with the "choices" they'd voted on, taking away people's opportunity to hear opposing views and make up their own mind. He also thinks they tampered with the cannon and that's why there are no "originals" to be found. He thinks [ I don't know where he got this one from ] they made changes as they needed to to bloster the Catholic version of Christianity and destroyed the copies that were made earlier to "cover their deception".

Something else I seem to recall our talking about: When God created man, he wanted us to serve him, but he didn't want us to do so by compulsion like a programed robot. My husband said that when you examine the history of Christianity it was spread by the sword, same as the Muslim religion and that the Crusaders not only killed the pagans who refused to submit as well as the Muslims later on, but went on to kill the Christians in Constantinople and sack their city looting it of it's massive wealth. He basically said that because of terror and murder the entire western civilization has been trained like a bunch of monkies to believe Christianity....not because, as we're taught, it is the "one true religion".

I know he's right about "spread by terror" part so I didn't know how to respond. How would you explain that away if you were talking to him?

He's pretty P.O.ed to put it delicately; I think I will not bring this up with him. As we talk I'm remembering more and more that he and I have discussed over the past two or three years.

One more quick kid question: "If God wants people to be fruitful and multiply then why are women dirty after having a baby and why are they dirtier after having a baby girl than after having a baby boy." "Were you dirty for 7 days after having me?"

I'm gonna have to get off of here now for real. My house looks like a pig sty right now and with it being a weekend I can't hang around. I don't think hubby would be too happy if he wandered by the computer and saw us talking about him. I'd like to have a nice, peaceful weekend.

One last thing before I go - Are you a dispensationalist Butero?

[khalou]

Absolute faith in Christianity is not good for human beings mentally, spiritually, or emotionally.

Well I'm certainly glad that you're no authority on the matter. In fact, studies have proven just the opposite of what you claim here.

Studies on what? Absolute faith? Or just picking and choosing what you truly believe?

How did they test for absolute faith?

k

[khalou]

k

God has not vanished and He is so calling your name it is almost unreal!! All of us here I know are praying for you, at least I know I am for sure. You cross my heart daily and I know that is only the Lord reminding me to pray for you. You have not strayed far enough that He cannot reach you and He is calling you back khalou He loves us all in spite of our intellect that we think we have over Him or the things we seem to believe in. I have been having a real hard time of it myself this week, grief that has not been dealt with but I cannot and will not let go of the only thing that is solid in my life right now and that is my Lord. He does not ever leave us He cannot according to His promises. That in itself gives me a peace that I cannot explain. You try too hard at your running and I see it very clearly in your intellect. You have let your brain talk too much and pushed God out. Stop and I know you will hear him again khalou!! The word says that the very elect will be decieved and that is all you have done is allowed yourself to be decieved by the lies of the father of lies. I really do not understand why the Lord has put you so heavily on my heart but He has and I continue to pray for you everyday!!!

You are giving me a blueprint of what happened to me in your own life.

That peace of which you speak is nice, isn't it? Even in light of your situation, you have His peace that passes all understanding. It seems like a gift, but it is not.

Your unresolved grief need never be resolved because of the peace you've been granted. I don't know the circumstances of your grief, but mine was profound and lasted for years and years. Continual punishment at an emotional level that no person with which I was dealing had ever seen before, and they were professionals in the realm in which I was dealing. Yet I was at peace.

That was because of my absolute faith in the Lord.

Guess what? I succeeded. I went through it where others couldn't. I lasted because of my faith in God, and the peace He provided. Everyone told me, especially Christians, that I didn't have to endure this. It was superhuman. But I had faith in God, and he granted me peace. Every personal attack at my heart, every insult to my person, every emotional slash, all were left at the Cross, and peace was granted.

But I discovered something. None of it was left at the cross. It was all in a cage that I'd built myself through the sheer will of my faith. It was inside of me- rotting my ability to experience any sort of human joy. I'd become a machine. Those weak Christians had been right. I had no business believing in any of it to that extent. The Bible is written for those who can't really live up to it's expectations, because there is forgiveness for those who can't, but nothing for those who actually take it seriously but emotional impairment at a clinical level.

That wasn't the reason God disappeared, but it was the start of my questions. Had I belonged to any other faith on the planet, it couldn't have happened. No other faith tells us that we are incapable of being too faithful, so we aren't supposed to worry about it.

Think about it. All the time I've been here all I've heard about my fall from grace is that I didn't really measure up! That I lost faith, or that I didn't believe enough, or I became angry at God. It is almost laughable! The absolute, exact opposite is more the truth.

k

k

You have not fallen from grace if you had you would not be breathing. God's grace is sufficient, which is something through what I've been through recently, the death of my husband, I have learned more of and am still experiencing I almost destroyed my life by wrong decisions and God stopped me in my tracks. I was being decieved so badly and I was blind to it. If it were not for my friends praying diligently I would not be writing this. I do trust the Lord for everything I just wish I were as faithful as He is, I will not reach perfection until I am home with Him but I strive for that perfection which is preparing me for going home!!

k

I would like to add also it is His grace that sustains us not our faith. Our faith is in what God can and will do for us according to His word. We still have to deal with our problems and seek answers to deal with things not just bury them. Yes take them to the cross and ask the Lord to show you how to deal with the emotons that linger. We are human not robots. God still allows us to have emotions and responses to our lives. We are feeling beings and emotional beings. He knows that too. It sounds like you took it to the cross but at some point you took it all back and boy that had to be a monster of emotions that fell on you. I hand everything over to the Lord daily and guess what there is always something hanging around. Like I said I am not perfect and never will be until I go home, and I am so looking forward to seeing the face of the ONE who saved me!!!

That's nice and all, but how was I supposed to know what was happening. I prayed for peace and I got it. Where in the Bible does it say "But don't take that too seriously, because you are an emotional being"? Those emotions never "fell" on me. I never experienced them because I didn't know about them. As far as I knew, they were gone. When I read that God would grant me peace if I asked for it, I believed it. How do you, for example, not take Him at His word?

k

[khalou]

khalou, have you been talking to my husband? Yes he would be extremely angry if anyone tried to tell him he didn't know the bible or that he must not have really been saved. That seems to be the "pat" responses when people find out his "dirty little secret". He knows the Bible better than anyone I've known except for one or two ministers. He used to scold me for being so "laid back" about it. Now he's the atheist.

I know him intimately, though I've never met him. I went through the same thing.

k

[khalou]

You know, khalou, after all you have said here about you having known the Lord for 40 years, I just don't believe it. I have know Jesus Christ for 44 years, and I have had a growing relationship, not without trials, but all with Him and His sustaining. When you are truly His, you grow up in Him. When you allow doubt, and bitterness and anger to fester, you tend to become limp and ineffective and even dry up spiritually. You walk in disobedience, and God takes His hand off you.

Why have you not grown? Is it because you have allowed doubt to steal the truth you had? Have you allowed bitterness to poison your sweetness with Jesus? Or did you merely have a mental assent to Christ, mistakenly believing you were a believer?

Anyone who says they were a Christian but aren't now---was never a truly committed believer. They have NEVER tasted of the sweetness of the Lord, for they would NEVER have abandoned Him. Once you know Jesus personally, you cannot deny Him.

It wasn't doubt that led me to believe that Christianity isn't healthy. It was absolute faith in it. Absolute faith in Christianity is not good for human beings mentally, spiritually, or emotionally. The only way it doesn't negatively effect a person is if they have a wishy-washy faith that allows them to be "reasonable" about it and pick and choose what they will take seriously.

I haven't seen any evidence on this board that Faith in Christ isn't what each of you have decided it is according to your own sensibilities. I predict you will all be Christians for the rest of your lives as a result. After all, Christianity is easy when it's on your own terms.

I couldn't just halfway live that life- not if I truly believed it was the truth. Anything less than 100% commitment might as well be called Christianity Lite.

k

100% submission is what it's about. We die to self daily, taking up our Cross and following Jesus! He deserves it all! We are desperate without Him. In so doing, we also have wonderful freedom! Freedom from the pull of sin.

These terms are not ours---they are His! Laying down our own wills, we take up the cause of Christ. What an honour and a blessing. I have eternal life with Him as His promise to me.

I don't understand.

That's what I said. What is your point?

k

[khalou]

Khalou,

Who is Jesus Christ?

You see, I keep asking because this is central to Christianity.

You say He has vanished. However the tenants of the Faith are bound up in Him and not you.

It's about focus and where you have placed your Faith. So what if God doesn't supply all the answers you seem to feel haven't been answered.

If a Truck hit you today would His Broken Body and Poured out Blood be enough?

I keep asking the question because it is an important one and central to all the other issues.

I have a friend whose testimony is that he asked the Lord to reveal Himself to him. He was an atheist, almost destroyed anothers Faith. Yet when he awoke in an utter blackness devoid and deep all alone. It was then that he understood who the Lord was and that all the questions didn't really seem to matter that much. An exstence without God was an absolute nightmare.

Ever say Goodbye to a hero? Ever have to lay away your dreams? Ever been on the Road to Emmaus?

I haven't said you do not have enough Faith. My own personal Faith is very slim at times. That's not the point at all. It only takes a sliver of Faith and that is nothing to boast about, it comes forth from God. Otherwise you wouldn't even have that much. My quotes were that you refuse to mix your Faith with the Word of God.

It's the original lie. "Has God really said"?

Who is Jesus Christ, Khalou?

Peace,

Dave

I already answered that. Jesus was a very smart Man who understood compassion and social interaction principles that are of the pinnacle of our wisdom.

Did you miss it?

k

[khalou]

You will only anger him more because you can't answer his questions either.

k

We won't know that till I see what the questions are. So far, all I have seen is a question over how the Biblical cannon came about. There is nothing hard to answer in that. The books already existed. All this group did was to seek to find out which ones were accepted by the church as authoritative, and put them together in one book. It is hard for me to believe that this would cause anyone to lose their faith. It is also surprising that there is anyone that has been in church for any length of time that didn't already know this.

I doubt there is anything he could ask that I couldn't answer, or someone here at Worthy couldn't answer. That doesn't mean he would accept what we say, but that is another matter entirely. Atheists continually give answers to how we came to be, but I as a Christian, don't accept their answers either.

It is obvious to me that your answers are insufficient to the questions.

It isn't that I don't accept them, it is that they don't answer the questions. You said it yourself- it is Christians that simply "decide" not to accept evidence, not atheists. The same people that decided what version of the Jesus story to call "true" also decided to ignore one of the Ten Commandments in changing the Sabbath day. Your answer to this is that God wanted them to do exactly as they did. If the Ten Commandments are supposed to be such a big deal, then why would God decide such a thing?

Meanwhile, these same people were trying to adapt Christianity to their constituents' lifestyle. Interestingly, they chose the version of the Jesus story that most closely resembled their constituents' beliefs, and decided on a day of the week on which they already worshiped their god to be the Sabbath. The details of this version of the Jesus story (the Gospels) came out after Paul wrote his letters to churches in places where the Roman beliefs were prevalent by people who were of a Roman mindset.

These people also changed some of the wording in the ancient Hebrew scriptures in order to make it all make sense.

Why would God want them to do any of the above? He must have known that someday we'd discover this stuff. Is it a test of faith? If so, then how can Christians argue their religion through apologetics? What good is logic when it is to be abandoned in so many things regarding faith?

k

[TheProcess]

He gave Adam one law, not to eat the fruit of that tree. Had he obeyed, you never would have even seen anything come up in regard to the sacrifice of animals. Because he disobeyed, a problem was created. He violated God's standard of holiness by committing rebellion, and the penalty for such sin is death. One might ask why death, but you could ask the same question in regard to why we as a society place certain jail terms or penalties on various crimes? There is no absolute answer to that question. God as our creator set things up this way, and that is how it is.

God loves mankind, and didn't want to destroy Adam, so he set up a system whereby an animal would be killed, and when God saw the blood of the animal, sacrificed in Adam's place, it sufficed. Now it gets a bit more complicated. While animal blood was sufficient to provide a covering, it was not a satisfactory permanent solution to man's sinfulness. God already had a solution in mind. He would come down to earth and take on the form of a man (Jesus Christ) and die to pay the penalty for our sins. If we believe on Christ and the fact he died in our place on the cross at calvary, we are reconciled back to God. Till the cross, mankind sacrificed animals, looking forward to the day when that temporal system would be done away with, and a one-time offering would take place. This is a general overview of why the need for a blood sacrifice.

Blood sacrifice is one way to atone for sin according to the O.T., but there are other ways. If you go by O.T. law, the Jesus sacrifice would never be allowed for a number of reasons. The Christian notion of the Jesus sacrifice depends on an (entirely unverifiable) non-literal reading of the Old Testament. There is no substance to it.

[anti-hillbilly]

As quickly as I can:

BUTERO: Again, I would ask why your husband believes the stories about Darwin's daughter and the supposed witnesses? How does he know his source of information is reliable? Does he have the newspaper clipping?

I think he did locate the newspaper clipping. I'm sure if you do a search on the subject you can get more information.

At the same time, I feel it is better to let people decide for themselves rather than telling them stories to scare them away from it.

I agree.

As for who wrote the gospels, you are claiming that these books were written by unknown authors based on what? How do you know the people making these claims are telling the truth? Your husband is believing that based on faith in whoever told him it was the case. What if they are wrong or lying to him, just like people may have lied over Darwin's conversion. The same can be said about the claims about books being destroyed and the motives. Where is the proof that is true? Even if it is, it doesn't prove the lack of truth found in the accepted text. It only shows that there are some who don't have faith in other's ability to tell the true from the false so they tried to protect them through wrong means.

But Butero, he would take every single question you asked there, and tell you to turn it around and apply it to the Bible; that's what he did. You can pretty much verify the Darwin deathbed thing, the Scottish girl having a deathbed halluctination thing [dispensationalism] or that Joseph Smith was unable to provide the gold plates that he says the angel Maroni gave him.....and all those things happened in the past 200 yrs and yet millions of people believe at least one or two of them to be true. Lack of non-biblical verification and corroborration is just another thing that was a major crisis in his belief. -- He also didn't like that there's no "original" documents; why didn't God divinely preserve them he asked? As for authorship, I verified that myself. There's no proof nor do the gospel writers identify themselves except for maybe Luke. They're not in the bible in the order they were written either. If you dig around a bit you'll find that their names are based on "Catholic tradition".

BUTERO: I said that God did not want us to serve him like a programed robot. The fact that people that claimed to be followers of Jesus did things in a wrong manner, has no effect on the plan of God.

I agree; I think it's a free gift. BUT, it was spread by force and we can't deny that; that's just historical fact and just another crisis of faith for some people.

What's wrong with my son saying he thought that was stupid? I think they said women were more unclean after having a baby girl than a baby boy because it was a patriarchial society. Men were more highly valued than women.

Edited October 21, 2006 by anti-hillbilly

[Ovedya]

You will only anger him more because you can't answer his questions either.

k

"To be on a quest is nothing more or less than to become an asker of questions."

If this person is truly seeking, he would not be angered by a single answer to his questions.

Okay. Give it a shot.

But if you plan to tell a formerly devout believer that he never really believed, or didn't really understand, and are going to tell him that things that are true aren't, then I don't suppose you are answering his questions.

k

Whenever someone believes that truth is purely subjective, then there's really no point in attmpting to dispel his concepts with objective truth. Pilate was such a man - evidenced by his response to Jesus, "What is truth?"

Yeah, that'll help.

k

Glad you find it funny.