Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Thaddaeus]

Ovedya,

For every verse given thus-far against eternal security there is reasoning in the absence of direct evidence and misapplication of verses intended to be applied to those who have not truly received the redemption of Christ to those who already have.

First, there is no eternal security as you are implying. The verses you call as "not turly received redemption" is a straw man. The only ones who truly receive redemption are those who have died and the final determination is made, the judgement. Up until that point, everyone who believes does not have it tied down in concrete. You will have it now, AS LONG AS YOU ARE FAITHFUL. There is absolutely no text that says we will be saved when we lose faith.

That initial faith is actually called justification. The change over from unbeleiver to believer and one repents, is baptised. The baptism is what signifies a beleiver. That is the only qualification the Bible makes relative to who is or who is not. NEVER does it qualify as to whom might eventually be saved. No one knows but God. Thus if a believer has been baptised, he has entered into the Kingdom. He has two paths open to him at this point. He can endure, or fall away. He can fall away invisible to others, or as in Hebrews 6, they can depart visibly. They either physcially, verbally depart which becomes quite obvious to all others.

That is why there are only two groups, believers and unbelievers. You are or you are not. There is not area that you can be IN Christ, and out of fellowship, which is a term often used by OSAS proponents. Out of anything is out. You cannot exist in Christ and be unfaithful.

I Pet 1:4-5 is the most vivid text relative to the direct relationship to the full promise, that it is reserved, we have made a down payment with initial faith, but we must keep making payments until the end. We are kept BY THE POWER OF GOD THROUGH FAITH. That word through is critical. It simply means that we must have faith. No faith, no power of God any longer. It does not say through unbelief or faithlessness.

You will not find a single verse in the Bible which advocates that a believer should receive the Lord a multiplicity of times, just as the unbeliever receives the Lord for the first time

That is because you possibly put a box around justification and separate it from the box of sanctification. But if we no longer have faith to continue sanctification, it is the same faith that justifies, thus if you don't have faith, you no longer are justified either. There is no separation. It is not a continual up and down. It is a matter of remaining in a consistant road to improvement. That is what sanctification means. It is not a one time event or status.

That is why we need to work out our salvation. We were created to do just that. So get at it.

(The whole point of these three verses: IT IS IMPOSSIBLE...TO RENEW THEMSELVES UNTO REPENTANCE. It is very clear here that the act of renewing oneself unto repentance is not only immature - according to the first verse - it is shameful!)

I'm no Greek scholar but this verse is not translated correctly from the Greek. Often very difficult to arrive at the same intent.

But to put it in the long form, as long as you are in the process of falling away, you cannot be renewed. That is very logical and reasonable assumption. You must stop falling first. You cannot take God for granted with phoney repentance as if he will grant it, but you just continue on your road downhill. Repeatance is a very active, conscious turnaround. You need to stop falling first.

These two verses do not speak at all of the loss of salvation, but contrasts the difference between the believers and the unbelievers. It

Yes, the difference that a believer can become an unbeliever. That is precisely the point. It is so vividly clear. One cannot remain IN Christ and think that one can sin repeatedly, willingly, even reject without repentance and remain IN Christ. You have fallen into the status of an unbeleiver. Thus the warning and the contrast.

11) But we desire earnestly that each of you show the same diligence unto the full assurance of our hope until the end,

("Full assurance of our hope until the end." That is an unconditional statement affirming the eternal security of the believers!)

Yes, that is why we can have assurance in this life. That is why every believer knows precisely where they are in their walk with God. IF WE REMAIN DILIGENT. Who is remaining diligent, you or God.

I have never understood how a proponent of OSAS even has any kind of assurance in this life. You can live like the devil, you can be the most saintly person, but IF at any time you manifest as those in Hebrews 6 do, you walk away from God. All you can say, is that they were never saved in the first place. So where is your assurance. You have far less, none, verses those who knowingly are working out their salvation, with continual repentance and working with

Christ to transform and conform them to the perfect Image of God.

12) That you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and long-suffering are inheriting the promises.

This next verse then tells you how you are to that, remain faithful. Work at being imitators, not sluggish either, patient, long suffering. In other words, don't give up, as the plant did with the thorns and thistles of the parable of the sower. This is a direct correlation between the two.

(There it is: Faith as the final assurance and God's promise as the "cement" of the oath itself, which we have as an "anchor of the soul." Why? Because Christ did it, not us!)

No one is discounting the use of faith. But it is not an automatic on a one-time assent of faith and we are locked in as a laser guide. It is THROUGH faith, not BY faith. We are justified BY faith.

Of course nobody ever wants to take the time to actually read references like these. It may just turn their self-conceived notions and ingrained doctrinal precepts on their respective ears!

And anyone else on this board that uses sola scriptura as a method to show or prove a biblical doctrine or view can say the very same thing. Neither of you have any more strength is verses than the next.

However, if one took the time to see just how the Church and Christianity has always beleived and understood these verses, a view that has not changed ever, then one has much more strength as it is a direct preservation by the Holy Spirit in time. It is not dependent on a single man coming up the the most reasonable statment based on a verse, most of the time ignoring most of scripture to the contrary.

A study of the OT aught to show you that as well. Every single Isrealite should have been saved as eternally as any NT believer upon faith. Solomon would have been saved, Saul would have been saved. A host of others where the Bible says they were not but started out as favored by God.

You view does not correlate with thelogy of scripture.

[Smalcald]

Ovedya,

For every verse given thus-far against eternal security there is reasoning in the absence of direct evidence and misapplication of verses intended to be applied to those who have not truly received the redemption of Christ to those who already have.

First, there is no eternal security as you are implying. The verses you call as "not turly received redemption" is a straw man. The only ones who truly receive redemption are those who have died and the final determination is made, the judgement. Up until that point, everyone who believes does not have it tied down in concrete. You will have it now, AS LONG AS YOU ARE FAITHFUL. There is absolutely no text that says we will be saved when we lose faith.

That initial faith is actually called justification. The change over from unbeleiver to believer and one repents, is baptised. The baptism is what signifies a beleiver. That is the only qualification the Bible makes relative to who is or who is not. NEVER does it qualify as to whom might eventually be saved. No one knows but God. Thus if a believer has been baptised, he has entered into the Kingdom. He has two paths open to him at this point. He can endure, or fall away. He can fall away invisible to others, or as in Hebrews 6, they can depart visibly. They either physcially, verbally depart which becomes quite obvious to all others.

That is why there are only two groups, believers and unbelievers. You are or you are not. There is not area that you can be IN Christ, and out of fellowship, which is a term often used by OSAS proponents. Out of anything is out. You cannot exist in Christ and be unfaithful.

I Pet 1:4-5 is the most vivid text relative to the direct relationship to the full promise, that it is reserved, we have made a down payment with initial faith, but we must keep making payments until the end. We are kept BY THE POWER OF GOD THROUGH FAITH. That word through is critical. It simply means that we must have faith. No faith, no power of God any longer. It does not say through unbelief or faithlessness.

You will not find a single verse in the Bible which advocates that a believer should receive the Lord a multiplicity of times, just as the unbeliever receives the Lord for the first time

That is because you possibly put a box around justification and separate it from the box of sanctification. But if we no longer have faith to continue sanctification, it is the same faith that justifies, thus if you don't have faith, you no longer are justified either. There is no separation. It is not a continual up and down. It is a matter of remaining in a consistant road to improvement. That is what sanctification means. It is not a one time event or status.

That is why we need to work out our salvation. We were created to do just that. So get at it.

(The whole point of these three verses: IT IS IMPOSSIBLE...TO RENEW THEMSELVES UNTO REPENTANCE. It is very clear here that the act of renewing oneself unto repentance is not only immature - according to the first verse - it is shameful!)

I'm no Greek scholar but this verse is not translated correctly from the Greek. Often very difficult to arrive at the same intent.

But to put it in the long form, as long as you are in the process of falling away, you cannot be renewed. That is very logical and reasonable assumption. You must stop falling first. You cannot take God for granted with phoney repentance as if he will grant it, but you just continue on your road downhill. Repeatance is a very active, conscious turnaround. You need to stop falling first.

These two verses do not speak at all of the loss of salvation, but contrasts the difference between the believers and the unbelievers. It

Yes, the difference that a believer can become an unbeliever. That is precisely the point. It is so vividly clear. One cannot remain IN Christ and think that one can sin repeatedly, willingly, even reject without repentance and remain IN Christ. You have fallen into the status of an unbeleiver. Thus the warning and the contrast.

11) But we desire earnestly that each of you show the same diligence unto the full assurance of our hope until the end,

("Full assurance of our hope until the end." That is an unconditional statement affirming the eternal security of the believers!)

Yes, that is why we can have assurance in this life. That is why every believer knows precisely where they are in their walk with God. IF WE REMAIN DILIGENT. Who is remaining diligent, you or God.

I have never understood how a proponent of OSAS even has any kind of assurance in this life. You can live like the devil, you can be the most saintly person, but IF at any time you manifest as those in Hebrews 6 do, you walk away from God. All you can say, is that they were never saved in the first place. So where is your assurance. You have far less, none, verses those who knowingly are working out their salvation, with continual repentance and working with

Christ to transform and conform them to the perfect Image of God.

12) That you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and long-suffering are inheriting the promises.

This next verse then tells you how you are to that, remain faithful. Work at being imitators, not sluggish either, patient, long suffering. In other words, don't give up, as the plant did with the thorns and thistles of the parable of the sower. This is a direct correlation between the two.

(There it is: Faith as the final assurance and God's promise as the "cement" of the oath itself, which we have as an "anchor of the soul." Why? Because Christ did it, not us!)

No one is discounting the use of faith. But it is not an automatic on a one-time assent of faith and we are locked in as a laser guide. It is THROUGH faith, not BY faith. We are justified BY faith.

Of course nobody ever wants to take the time to actually read references like these. It may just turn their self-conceived notions and ingrained doctrinal precepts on their respective ears!

And anyone else on this board that uses sola scriptura as a method to show or prove a biblical doctrine or view can say the very same thing. Neither of you have any more strength is verses than the next.

However, if one took the time to see just how the Church and Christianity has always beleived and understood these verses, a view that has not changed ever, then one has much more strength as it is a direct preservation by the Holy Spirit in time. It is not dependent on a single man coming up the the most reasonable statment based on a verse, most of the time ignoring most of scripture to the contrary.

A study of the OT aught to show you that as well. Every single Isrealite should have been saved as eternally as any NT believer upon faith. Solomon would have been saved, Saul would have been saved. A host of others where the Bible says they were not but started out as favored by God.

You view does not correlate with thelogy of scripture.

Hi Thaddeus,

I find your last paragraph interesting. Do you believe that the Church of Christianity or parts of it which have not changed ever, can be found in different congregations of Christians or only in one single place at one single time?

[Openly Curious]

There is a passage of scripture that came into my mind as I was reading in this thread. I haven't thought upon this passage for quite a long long while in fact it's been quite a few years now that has passed but these verses were brought back to my memory so I thought I would add them in here for discussion as I think apostle Paul say some interesting things in regards to his personal concern for the Galatian believers.

Galatians 4:12-20

"Brethren I beseech you be as I am: for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all. Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not nor rejected but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record that if it had been possible ye would have plucked out your own eyes and have given them to me. Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? They zealously affect you but not well: yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them. But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you. My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you. I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice, for I stand in doubt of you."

This is an interesting passage of scripture as apostle Paul has an urgency about his message and concern for the believers at Galatia for them to be as he was for he himself was a fellow believer. Paul said that they knew how he had preached the gospel to them while he was weak because of infirmities in his flesh and they knew how he was being tempted and tormented in his flesh but all throughout his sufferings they did not despise or reject his gospel message he brought to them. As they had received him with open arms as and angel of God even as if he was Christ Jesus himself that is the way they treated Paul at the first.

But Paul comes and sounds brokenhearted even and asks the Galatian believers, Where was that blessedness in which that had earlier spoke about back then? As Paul continued to say that back at that time if it had been possible they would have plucked out their own eyes and would have given them unto him if he would have asked. And now it is different as Paul is looked at as the enemy because he still proclaiming the same truths of the gospel as before but something has happened to the Galatian believers since Paul's last visit they've grown cold and distant towards him.

Paul says, to them it is a good thing and not a bad thing to be zealously affected always in a good thing meaning actively involved in works that are worthy to do or be involved in a good causes not only when Paul is in their midst but when he is away they should be active in good deeds doing those things that are good and right.

Then he says something that is very interesting and note worthy to this discussion in verse #19--My little children of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you. I desire to be present with you now and to change my voice for I stand in doubt of you."

Wow it seems the believers at Galatia had stopped what they once were doing at the first when they received Paul's gospel and Paul says, that he travailed in his Spirit "until" Christ be formed in them. Then Paul said that he stood in doubt of them as they had stopped walking in the Spirit and starting living according to the flesh to where Christ was no longer glorified in their Christian walk.

Paul even said back in Galatians 3:11--"I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."

Whenever a believer stops walking in the Spirit and starts walking according to the flesh and it's lust then the life of Christ within the believers life cannot be brought forth the good and right things cannot be done because of the lust of the flesh being fulfilled in their lives which is the fruit unto death. Christ has to be formed in all of us so that the life of Christ can live in and through us even in our sufferings and temptations and times of weakness.

I just could feel the heartbreak in apostle Paul's heart as he had to start all over again with these believers and teach them once again to walk in the Spirit so that they wouldn't be under the curse of the law. Which the curse of the law was the sinful nature of Adam in which all of us inherited because of what Satan did in the garden. As Satan was the father of that nature we were born with.

But God imparted his divine nature to us when we were born again setting us free to be able to choose which nature in us we want to follow. The nature of the first Adam which is Satan's or the nature of the second Adam which is Christ's.

If one walks according to the nature of the first Adam then they go back up under the curse of the law in which the law of Moses the levitical priesthood all the animal sacrifices and all the laws that were given will never make one righteous and a new creature in Christ Jesus. This is going back up the letter of the law.

When one walks according to the nature of the second Adam given through Christ Jesus to us that is the righteousness of God within us and the work of God alone then that is the nature of the heavenly Father above and there is no law and no curse as they have been set free to walk in the Spirit.

But we all have a choice to yield to the fleshly nature of the first Adam or to yield to the Spirit the nature of the second Adam being Christ in whom we are made the righteousness of God and we should be zealously affected in the good things and good and right deeds in our personal lives for this is the very fruit and work of God in our lives but if we surpress it and live according to the old nature then Christ cannot or will not be formed in our lives and we go back into bondage of the flesh and the curse of the law. As the letter of the law does stand.

OC

[Thaddaeus]

Smalcald,

I find your last paragraph interesting. Do you believe that the Church of Christianity or parts of it which have not changed ever, can be found in different congregations of Christians or only in one single place at one single time?

The ONE faith has not changed within the Body of Christ throughout history. It can be verified by historical record. Even though each congregation is the whole, complete Body of Christ, each congregation is not the Church. We are many, but ONE. Each beleiver is thought that way as well. Thus either a beleiver falls, or a whole congregation, or even a much larger area becomes apostate, the Church as a whole does not become apostate. The Church by definition is Christ. Christ cannot become apostate, unless you think He can.

[Floatingaxe]

The following truth runs the course of both the Old and New Testaments -

[spiritman]

More references for you all:

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=%23%2C%3FG%5C%0A

http://www.av1611.org/etern.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved-always-saved.html

http://www.wholesomewords.org/etexts/chafer/chaassur.html

http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/45-40.htm

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t006.html

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1989ii/Malan.html

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1990ii/Calvin.html

Of course nobody ever wants to take the time to actually read references like these. It may just turn their self-conceived notions and ingrained doctrinal precepts on their respective ears!

Ovedya,

I followed some of you're links, and I couldn't get the first one to load. Anyway here is what it boils down to, you have some scriptures backing up O.S.A.S. But I can post at least half a dozen scriptures to the contrary. For example the next link talks about if you believe in Christ you will be saved, true enough; but that also means that a Christian can lose their salvation if they discontinue to believe, true enough. All these scriptures O.S.A.S and not once saved always saved need to be put together in a way to where they both fit together in harmony. The only way to do that is to come to the conclusion, that a saved person can lose their salvation if they sin, however, if they repent, the Lord forgives and they are back in again. P.S I will not spend any time posting any of the scriptures I was refering to because CardCaptor, and Vicki, and some others did such a fine job on putting it together that there is not a whole lot I could add.

As far as a Christian really not being saved if he/she sins, I don't swollow that for a moment. There are scriptures to back up the fact that true Christians did fall away, and repent, and come back.

Peace and Love

Spiritman

[Thaddaeus]

Smalcald,

I agree with some of what you are saying, particularly the last paragraph. Division has been and is about sin. Both of us each Sunday recite the Nicene Creed, as do our Catholic and I believe Anglican and even Presbyterian brothers and sisters, so we are one in that doctrine, yet indeed separated, this is not of God.

That is quite true and I did also as a protestant. But I went back to look at the Hymnals in each of the Churchs of which I had been a former member I found that in every case there are astericks on the bottom making exceptions where that church disagreed with the wording of the Nicene Creed. Also, since becoming Orthodox, when you study the theology that originates from the Nicene Creed, which is a summary of the Biblical understanding, there are many more issues that a lot of protestant denominations never have actually accepted by their own theology. Or to say it simpler, their theology disagrees with the Nicene Creed, even though they may recite it.

For example, if the Eastern Churches had not rejected the authority of Rome for the sake of not creating schism would that has been a good thing?

Absolutely not. But I don't think that the Holy Spirit would have allowed it to happen. It is the Body of Christ that rejected the idea of a substitute Christ here on earth. It also destroys the view of the Trinity and the Incarnation as embodied in the Church. It destroys the Christological understanding of the Gospel. Christ is Head of His Church, Period.

My point about the open bible was that for many years the concept of instructed individual Christians with access to the Word of God was foreign and discouraged.

I think that is wholly misunderstood even from a western viewpoint. The fact of the matter prior to the printing press very few people had access to cheap readable books. What books were available, especially religious, the Bible in particular was held by the Church and others were instructed in the faith. To say that it was barred from them, I think, is erronous. They could not read anyway, if they had it. I think you are assuming that the ancient world was too much like what you have.

It was discouraged because the churches were worried about the divisions you mention and I dare say for purposes of power and control.

If that were true then both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churchs aught to be as fragmented as all the protestant Churches. But that has not happened, even after the printing press and the diluge of printed material, leaning, ability for the masses to read, just has not happened.

When Christ calls us to be servants and to be happy with food and clothing, and Paul tells us that faith alone in Christ saves us, it is much harder to maintain a hierarchy which acts and looks like royalty, controlling lands, wealth and selling salvation.

Again this is wholly western, Roman Catholic to be precise and is not relevant to anything of Orthodoxy.

The bible was not even printed in native langauges, this was itsself a radical idea.

- Hardly, in every land in which the Gospel went they taught it in the native language. This is one of the ways that the Church grew into the larger part of the world. Russia and the Slavs come to mind. You may also be more influenced by Roman Catholic hear again, but I do not have much knowledge regarding their practice after the Schism.

[matthew4:4]

More references for you all:

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=%23%2C%3FG%5C%0A

http://www.av1611.org/etern.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved-always-saved.html

http://www.wholesomewords.org/etexts/chafer/chaassur.html

http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/45-40.htm

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t006.html

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1989ii/Malan.html

http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1990ii/Calvin.html

Of course nobody ever wants to take the time to actually read references like these. It may just turn their self-conceived notions and ingrained doctrinal precepts on their respective ears!

Ovedya,

I followed some of you're links, and I couldn't get the first one to load. Anyway here is what it boils down to, you have some scriptures backing up O.S.A.S. But I can post at least half a dozen scriptures to the contrary. For example the next link talks about if you believe in Christ you will be saved, true enough; but that also means that a Christian can lose their salvation if they discontinue to believe, true enough. All these scriptures O.S.A.S and not once saved always saved need to be put together in a way to where they both fit together in harmony. The only way to do that is to come to the conclusion, that a saved person can lose their salvation if they sin, however, if they repent, the Lord forgives and they are back in again. P.S I will not spend any time posting any of the scriptures I was refering to because CardCaptor, and Vicki, and some others did such a fine job on putting it together that there is not a whole lot I could add.

As far as a Christian really not being saved if he/she sins, I don't swollow that for a moment. There are scriptures to back up the fact that true Christians did fall away, and repent, and come back.

Peace and Love

Spiritman

Hold on a sec what if a christian dies during a sin and doesnt repent. What if Im christian and saved and then I go out with friends and drink way too much and end up driving crashing the car and dying. You're saying because of that one sin I wasnt able to repent for then I'm then condemned to hell for eternity. Not one thing about that situation would be just. Also, when Jesus died that was for all of our sins(past, present, and future) so whats the reason for repenting? Dont get me wrong. I do it but its more something that God wants us to do. We do it because its a healthy thing to do. To confess your sins to God. So, let me know what you think. Your brother in Christ, matthew

[Openly Curious]

[Smalcald]

Faith will produce a heart of repentance and a heart which is ashamed of our sin toward God. This faith does not desire to play with sin, to tempt God by counting on grace to indulge in sin. So planned repentance, meaning you say in your heart I want to wallow in sin (which I know leads to death), so I will simply do it, then repent, this does not show faith.

But for example, what of the addict? A person who deeply wants to leave an addiction but is struggling to do so. He or she continually repents and repents in their true heart, God will deal with this person as someone who has faith and will deliver them, but not always all at once. What if they die in the process? On the outside however to our human eyes, we are not going to be able to tell the difference or what is going on between case 1 and case 2, only God knows that.