Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Openly Curious]

Faith will produce a heart of repentance and a heart which is ashamed of our sin toward God. This faith does not desire to play with sin, to tempt God by counting on grace to indulge in sin. So planned repentance, meaning you say in your heart I want to wallow in sin (which I know leads to death), so I will simply do it, then repent, this does not show faith.

But for example, what of the addict? A person who deeply wants to leave an addiction but is struggling to do so. He or she continually repents and repents in their true heart, God will deal with this person as someone who has faith and will deliver them, but not always all at once. What if they die in the process? On the outside however to our human eyes, we are not going to be able to tell the difference or what is going on between case 1 and case 2, only God knows that.

That is precisely why I believe so strongly in these verses of scriptures

1 John 1:5-10 but especially verse #9 which says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins., and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. as true repentance and confession to God is a test of our own righteousness toward God.

1 John 5:13-21 but especially verses 14 & 15 which says, "And this is the "confidence" that we have "in him" that if we ask any thing according to his will he heareth us. And if we know that he hear us whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him." As these verses show to us the certainties of our faith.

John 15:1-17 we cannot bear fruit outside of the vine and therefore we must abide in Him for without Christ we can do nothing on our own. Verse #3 of the text say, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." we are made clean through the word for it is truth and the will of God. Verse #7 of the text says, If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." These verses tells us that Jesus is the true vine in whom we must abide in and Jesus is the Word being the very will of God.

We have the word and will of God to help us in our troubles and we can pray the will of God and petition God for what it is we need. I am so thankful for that at this time in my life as sometimes our minds are forgetful of the words of our Lord Jesus Christ.

OC

[TomPJr]

Tom, what does it mean to speak against the Holy Spirit?

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

If you are saying that the conviction from the Holy Spirit is not real, or you make excuses, you are speaking against the Holy Spirits work. You are taking it upon yourself to decide what's right or wrong instead of really listening to the Holy Spirit. Think about it....To blaspheme God, you claim the power of God for yourself....If you are choosing to rebel against the Holy Spirit and rely on your own interpretation and understanding of what is good and acceptable, then you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit by claiming those attributes that are possessed by the Holy Spirit.

and...

Salvation comes by faithe, confession, asking forgiveness, and repentence.....if you continually ignore the Holy Spirit you become in danger of hardening your heart and deafening you ears to the very one who convicts you to do those things.

Then you will no longer be convicted to ask fogiveness or repent. The only unforgiveable sin is the one you fail to ask forgiveness for. That is why we should head the convictions from the Holy Spirit lest we Grieve him away.

That is an interesting response, but it doesn't fit. In the first place, when Jesus spoke of the Pharisees being guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, they were attributing the works of the Spirit to the devil. As such, it is obvious that was their sin, not simple rejection of Christ. You can reject something without being guilty of blasphemy. In reality, most of us didn't get saved the first time we felt conviction. I was under conviction for 6 months before getting saved. In addition, one can reject salvation without speaking against God or his Spirit. I have known people who will not speak against God at all, but won't get saved either. One man I know once said that he believes in the Lord, but doesn't serve him. That is not blasphemy or speaking against. It is simply making a bad choice.

Butero.

Hi. Please read my post again slowly with consideration. then continue with this response.

I think that what you said goes hand in hand with what I said...The pharisees attributed the works of Jesus to the Devil actually. But they did, however, ignore the Holy Spirits convictions, due to their selfish pride, greed, and unwillingness to change. In this sense, because they denied that it was from God, they blasphemed the Holy Spirit which was their only means of being convicted to repent. Remember...the Holy Spirit is here to enlighten us and bring us into the truth, and to convict us of sin. If we deny that it is devine conviction we are denying the Holy Spirit. If we deny that it is from God then it might as well be from Satan. Thus Blasphemy of the HolyGhost. The pharisees were taking upon themselves the authority of the Holy Spirit by claiming that they knew what was true and denying the real truth. They, by their own accord, condemd others....not by true inspiration.

I am interested to hear from you.

With love in Christ.

Tom.

Hello Tom. I guess to get to the bottom of this, we need to look at the scripture where the issue comes up, from Matthew 12:22-32

22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb spake and saw.

23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Jesus just gets through casting a devil out of a man, and the people begin to marvel. Notice that the Pharisees don't simply reject Jesus as being the Messiah, but they take things a step further and accuse him of using the power of the devil to cast out devils. In reality, it wasn't the power of the devil at all that empowered Jesus, but the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit that decended upon him in the form of a dove at his earlier baptism. Let's continue.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Jesus responds to the Pharisees by pointing out that Satan will not cast himself out of someone he is possessing. It makes no logical sense to do so. It would be like someone in the military fighting against his own troops. If someone does this, they will not stand because they are divided. Jesus goes on to make this same point in reference to a kingdom or a house divided. He then mentions the fact that some of their children have been casting out devils, and asks by whose power they are operating?

Verse 28 is very important. In this verse, Jesus tells us where the real power to cast out devils lies. It is not through Beelzebub, but through the Spririt of God. When a person is possessed, the devils inside him are not going to up and leave on their own. It requires one stronger than them to force them to leave. We in our own power are not capable of doing this, but the Spririt of God is. In verse 30, Jesus says that those not for him are against him. The Pharisees who are rejecting Jesus are making themselves his enemy and attempting to keep others from accepting him. He then goes on in verse 31 and 32 to make the following statement.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

If we only had verses 31 and 32 to go by, and they were isolated from all other scripture, we could draw any number of conclusions as to their meaning. However, that is not the way they are presented. Jesus is continuing to speak to the event that had just occured, where the Pharisees had said he was casting out devils by "Beelzebub the prince of the devils" in verse 24, and Jesus was setting them straight by saying that it was by the "Spirit of God" he was in actuality casting them out in verse 28. We can see that the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost was attributing the work of God's Spirit to the devil. Jesus takes things a step further and warns us against speaking against the Holy Ghost at all in verse 32, telling us that this sin will not be forgiven, "neither in this world, neither in the world to come." This sin cannot simply be rejecting salvation or Jesus, because he tells us that "whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him." He makes a distinction between attacking him and attacking the Spirit.

Hi Butero,

I think that we are in more agreement than you think....mybe not, but let me explain more.

You said, "We can see that the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost was attributing the work of God's Spirit to the devil."

That goes hand in hand with what I was talking about. The Pharissees where denying the power of the Holy Spirit. They accused Jesus of blasphemy(claiming the power of God). If the Pharisees would have repented then they would have been saved, but they let their pride and selfishness harden their hearts and they would not head the warnings from Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Think about this... If it is bad to Just talk bad about the Holy Spirit, how much worse would it be to talk bad about Jesus or the Father. Of the three, the Father has the highest rank. The reason it is so dangerous to deny or blaspheme the Holy Spirit, is because he is the means by which we are convicted of the need to repent and ask forgiveness. The bible says that we must ask forgiveness and repent, so if we grieve away the Holy Spirit, we will no longer have the conviction to ask forgiveness or repent.

When Jesus was accused of blasphemy it was because he claimed the authority or power of God...

When we deny the convictions From the Holy Spirit, we are taking him from his position and putting ourselves in his place....just like Jesus putting himself in the place of God. The only difference is that jesus had the right to. If we continue to put ourselves in his place too long, there will come a point when probation closes, and like I sai above, we will grieve away the Holy Spirit and he will no longer convict our hearts, which leads us to ask forgiveness and repent.

All other sins can be forgiven because we can ask forgiveness and repent....once you grieve away the Holy Spirit, you will no longer feel the need to do so.

The only sin that is not forgiven is the one you don't ask forgiveness for and repent of.

Tom

[Ovedya]

The only sin that is not forgiven is the one you don't ask forgiveness for and repent of.

Then in terms of what you believe concerning salvation, you had better hope beyond all hope that you don't have a single sin unrepented of when your time is up on this earth.

Imagine....A Christian going to hell because of a single loose word said half a second before a bus runs him over.

That's precisely why OSNAS doesn't work!

[Ovedya]

First, there is no eternal security as you are implying.

The terms used to describe salvation:

1)

[Ovedya]

(Used with permission, from In-Touch Ministries)

Eternal Security

Can you explain the arguments against eternal security?

The Question At Hand

Problems must be properly defined before they can be solved. In this chapter we will survey the arguments raised by those who believe genuine salvation can be lost. Along the way we will take a brief tour of the history behind this belief. From there we will look at the divergence of opinion among the proponents of this view.

Historically Speaking...

Historically, this view has been associated with Arminian theology. Jacobus Arminius was a Dutch Reformed theologian who lived during the late sixteenth century. As a theologian, he found himself at odds with the Calvinistic teachings of his church. In particular, he took issue over the teachings on predestination, sovereignty, and eternal security.

Arminius believed that election was determined by man's response to God's universal offer of salvation. In other words, God looked through time and saw which of us would trust in His Son for salvation. He then elected the ones He knew would eventually choose Him. Since election hinged on man's response to God's offer, it followed that one could lose his elect status by later rejecting that offer. Consequently, there was no assurance of ultimate salvation.

Arminians Today

Since the days of Arminius, many revered theologians and preachers, not the least of which was John Wesley, have espoused his views. Today the basic tenets of Arminianism are taught in the Nazarene church, the Wesleyan church, and the other denominations comprising the Christian Holiness Association.

Modern Arminianism falls within the realm of evangelicalism. That is, generally speaking, Arminians defend the deity of Christ, the virgin birth of Christ, the bodily resurrection of Christ, and the infallibility of Scripture.

Two Schools of Thought

As is the case with most doctrinal systems, there are differences among persons who would be considered Arminian in their theology. I have talked with literally hundreds of people about the question of eternal security. Some wanted to argue. Others sought answers. Through these discussions I have discovered that two schools of thought exist among those who believe salvation can be lost.

Abandoning the Faith

The first view falls within the framework of traditional Arminian theology. Simply stated, a genuine born-again believer can lose his or her salvation by turning away from the Christian faith (ie., by no longer believing or trusting in Christ). Such a person would be considered an "apostate." Apostasy is defined as "a deliberate repudiation and abandonment of the faith that one has professed." Individuals holding this view often interpret scriptural references to "falling away" as apostasy.

Hebrews 6:4-6

The classic passage used to defend this view is found in the sixth chapter of Hebrews. Over the course of my ministry, people have more frequently asked me for help in interpreting this passage than any other passage in the Bible. And understandably so! Here is what it says:

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have

fallen away

, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

[Smalcald]

Problems must be properly defined before they can be solved. In this chapter we will survey the arguments raised by those who believe genuine salvation can be lost

The whole argument boils down to that one word, genuine.

If I believed with all of my heart I was saved, but in the end walked away, was that ever genuine faith? One side would say yes and it was rejected the other side would say no, the guy never really believed, but really what is the difference the outcome is the same.

[Iryssa]

You guys have sure invested a lot fo time into this discussion...usually it's fizzled out by now with "for pity's sake, let's just agree to disagree" or something of the sort. I think instead, you should all gather the information you invested in here, and write me an essay...I reserve the right to treat is as my own as projects for my next theology class

[TomPJr]

The only sin that is not forgiven is the one you don't ask forgiveness for and repent of.

Then in terms of what you believe concerning salvation, you had better hope beyond all hope that you don't have a single sin unrepented of when your time is up on this earth.

Imagine....A Christian going to hell because of a single loose word said half a second before a bus runs him over.

That's precisely why OSNAS doesn't work!

Hi Ovedya,

I knew somebody would respond with that.

I Probably left you presuming what I believe by giving you a lack of information. Kind of like how the bible says that sinners will die or that idoitors and fornicators will have no part in the Kingdom of heaven. If you stop there in those passages there is no room for forgiveness, but we both agree that God forgives, right?

Like I and others mentioned before, it is a matter of the heart. God knows your heart...

Do you agree that even a person whos heart is with God will stumble and sin sometimes?

Even a person who has a converted heart can stumble sometimes, but it is the willfull premeditated sin that is a direct turning away from God. If you turn away on purpose, and don't repent, then you are throwing your salvation away. Period.

on the other hand, I believe, that if a person whos heart is with God sins in the spur of the moment, without really thinking about it, then they would probably be forgiven even if they died before they asked forgiveness, since God knows their heart and they aren't intentionally premeditating their sin.

I really don't think it's as cut and dry as people try to make it....like I said, God judges our hearts, and it's not for us to say that Joe Blow is saved or not. The wise man will be prepared by true conversion, and the foolish man presumes on his salvation.

[TomPJr]

[spiritman]

Also, I find it funny no one could respond to Kawbod's posts.

Actually A.K., you are mistaken if you thought "no one could respond to Kabowd's posts." I chose not to, with the exception of the comments on blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, because I saw no reason to. We have been going around in circles as long as I can remember over this issue with nobody changing their minds. We were arguing this back when you were still Super Jew, and that was a long time ago. Let's take a moment to examine the arguments that were given concerning Hosea, Jonah and Israel.

First there is Hosea. Did he force Gomer to return to him? I would say he did not. What he did was redeem her. It says in Hosea 3:1-3

1 THEN said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a women beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.

2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:

3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.

I have no reason to believe that she didn't want to return willingly, but there was a price to be paid, and she couldn't do it for herself. Hosea had to redeem her. Notice in the next two verses what this sybolizes.

4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:

5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Notice that when speaking of the children of Israel, it says that they shall return and seek the Lord their God. It doesn't say they will return by force. This is all voluntary.

Next let's look to Jonah. While it is true that Jonah rebelled against God and refused to go to Ninevah, God didn't make him do what he asked. Jonah always had a choice. He could die in the belly of the fish that swallowed him, or he could repent, return to God, and carry out his mission. Jonah's repentance can be found in Jonah chapter 2.

Then we come to Israel. God does have a plan for the nation as a whole, but there have been many individuals that have been cut off because of their disobedience to the Lord. In Exodus 32:33, as a result of sin on the part of many of the children of Israel, God says the following:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

This makes it plain that there were people whose name were recorded in the book of life, that had their names removed because they transgressed God's laws.

It is not that there are not answers to all of the arguments made by the OSAS crowd. I haven't found one that cannot be rebutted. The problem is that all we wind up doing is going around in circles. It all comes down to interpretation. Both sides believe the Bible is the Word of God, and look to the same passages, but they interpret things differen't. To try to strengthen the arguments, one side will point to commentaries, or theologeans to try to make it appear their side has the most weight on it's side, but in reality, these arguments prove nothing. The fact that Wesley didn't believe in OSAS and Calvin did, (though Calvin's interpretation and understanding of OSAS was quite differen't than what most are teaching today) means nothing. It all comes down to which side we as individual believers choose to accept as being right. Obviously, you believe the OSAS arguments are correct, and I don't. As I have stated before, I would find it easier to believe in pure Calvanism over what most Baptists teach today, because it makes far more sense.

By the way, though I know we don't agree on this particular issue, I am still glad to see you have decided to return Kabowd. We don't always see eye to eye, but I still consider you to be my sister in the Lord.

Buetro said " To try to strengthen the arguments, one side will point to commentaries, or theologeans to try to make it appear their side has the most weight on it's side, but in

reality, these arguments prove nothing.

spiritman replies: " Brother I totally disagree with you on this one. commentaries are a necessary tool in Bible study." And that's my opinion

A commentary is nothing more than one man giving an opinion. Differen't commentaries will give you an entirely differen't opinion. What is necessary about a commentary? If you just want opinions on a particular text, save your money and come to Worthy Boards. The people here, including myself, will be glad to tell you what we think a text in the Bible is saying. I am not saying that we will all be right, or that you won't get a lot of differen't viewpoints, but the same thing can be said of commentaries.

Buetro said " A commentary is nothing more than one man giving an opinion. Differen't commentaries will give you an entirely differen't opinion. What is necessary about a commentary? If you just want opinions on a particular text, save your money and come to Worthy Boards. The people here, including myself, will be glad to tell you what we think a text in the Bible is saying. I am not saying that we will all be right, or that you won't get a lot of differen't viewpoints, but the same thing can be said of commentaries

Spiritman replies: My brother Buetro; you and your worthy board friends may be to smart to seek a well educated Holy Ghost filled elders opinion about Bible passages, I on the other hand welcome the wisdom. Some of these men have studied far longer than any of us put together, and I respect that. And I will continue to read commentaries, along with a host of other study tools. Let it be known however, That the Holy spirit is the real teacher here and not men. Let us all seek wise council.

This is getting off the subject, so I won't respond to any more of this subject.

Peace and Love

Spiritman