Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[EricH]

I think it is interesting that no one has taken up my challenge to take up the verses that are difficult for your position, and honestly wrestle with them

[st. Worm]

I think it is interesting that no one has taken up my challenge to take up the verses that are difficult for your position, and honestly wrestle with them

Although it was about 120 postings ago I thought I did that by noting verses that appear to support both views and then explaining that both are true although it does not satisfy our reason and logic. At least I think that was this thread.

sw

[patricia1]

kari19,

Hi Kari, I'm glad you came back to answer the question I posed to you quite a few days ago. Larryt was kind enough to answer also and I explained to Him why I made the question. But....

As far as my understanding goes, the Bible refers to salvation as a "gift" from God....if He took it back, I guess it really wasn't a gift after all.

he does not take it back. Man gives it up. But the salvation of mankind, man cannot give that up either. Man has nothing to do with it. It is solely God active.

However, it made union or a spiritual relationship possible. This relationship is all spiritual and not physical. Eternal life is a physical existance. Man was saved from death, a physical death, to be immortal. Without this saving, man could not have any uniion with God, since he would simply die and cease to exist, if he remained under Adam's condemnation.

let me pose a question to you. If God is all power and all knowing.

why would He give man (lets take you for example) a gift that He knows you would give up in the future?

think about it. Is salvation like a hot potato that is bounced around back and forth.

Isnt salvation a little more serious?

Wouldnt God know that you would "give it up" anyways so why bother giving it to you the first time around?

Yes, it is serious, but you can see mankind all over in the bible turning their backs on God.

Out of all the millions of Jews that came out of Egypt with Moses, how many actually made it into the Promise Land? Two

Hebrews 4:5-11 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

God stands at the door offering all of mankind salvation. All they have to do is accept it. While under the salvation of God we are commanded to stay away from the very sins that his son died on the cross to forgive us for. To many times the draw of those sins takes man out of the graces of God as he prefers the pleasures of this world. Many times people believe that they can still commit these sins because they are automatically forgiven anyway. I know people who are drunkards and fornicators that believe they are saved and on their way to heaven because that is what their denomination teaches them.

We are told to repent of our sins and to resist temptation. This is the work that we do on this earth for the cause of Christ. When we put away the sins out of our lives and resist giving ourselves over to them this is the labor that we do to enter into that rest. When we finally enter into it we no longer will be fighting against temptation as there is no sin in heaven.

The reason why it is so hard to convert mankind into Christianity is the same reason why so many people turn their backs on Christianity and God. They prefer their sins.

2 Timothy 3:4-5 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

There are 3 types of Christians. One that lives their lives who;e heartedly for God, one that wants Christianity and the pleasures of this world, and those who completely leave the church for the pleasures of this life. Demas did the same thing.

2 Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

Now, here is a Christian who was traveling with Paul, probably helping with the spreading of the gospel, and he left for the love of this present world.

Matthew 10:37-39 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Demas gave up his life with Christ for a life in the world and was NOT worthy of Christ.

You see, God does not just up and decides to leave us. Demas made the first move and deserted Christ. He gave it up. Now, if he repented then God could forgive him, but if he didn't then he probably went to hell if he died in his sins.

Let me ask you this question - if a Christian cannot lose their salvation because of sin then why did he allow the verses I have been quoting about not letting sin be once named amongst us as becoming saints, about trodding under foot the son of God, and if we should fall away?

If my heart and desire is to serve God then he will never leave nor forsake me, but if I love pleasures more than God then I am not worthy of him.

i do not believe in once saved always saved...my apologies to whomever trish

[kari21]

Belief alone does NOT save mankind. We also have to do the will of God, which is living our lives by the commandments of Christ. The commandments are to stay away from sin and as I wrote just above here, that sin in our lives will keep us from attaining heaven.

Since we all sin, everyday of our lives, you better hope you don't get hit by a truck and killed having even ONE unconfessed sin in your life. If sin in our lives keeps us from heaven, then it is WE who are saving OURSELVES by our own efforts not to sin. We, by your logic, must live as sinless as Jesus or we will never see the kingdom.

[Thaddaeus]

exrockstar,

let me pose a question to you. If God is all power and all knowing.

why would He give man (lets take you for example) a gift that He knows you would give up in the future?

think about it. Is salvation like a hot potato that is bounced around back and forth.

Isnt salvation a little more serious?

Wouldnt God know that you would "give it up" anyways so why bother giving it to you the first time around?

The gift is Himself. He offers union and communion with Him. It is the purpose, the reason we exist as human beings. He restored mankind so that man could freely love, freely obey, freely walk with Him, live with Him, and with our fellow man. He created Adam, man, to be free. That is part of the Image of God in man. Why would God operate any other way then the way He wanted us to live by virture of creating us in His Image. He gives us a lifetime of perfecting that walk. We do not do it alone, but with Him, Doing it alone is what Adam believed in the lie of Satan.

He meant for us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It is a test of endurance, of real love and obedience. It is not the sunshine variety, but in the depths of our being, that we, with Him endure all things for His sake. That is the salvation of each individual person.

[patricia1]

CHRIST died for all sins, past present and future sins! if you sin,repent and that sin is forgiven. keep it simple!

You are correct, but what people don't want to accept is that if we don't repent then we are not forgiven and will die in those sins.

So salvation is based on our work and Christs. He forgives, but only when we have stopped sinning?

Do you even know what works are?

We are told to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. We are told that man is by works and NOT faith only. We were ordained to walk in good works.

The works they are talking about when they say these are all the things that we do in our lives to put away our sins and live more godly by actually living Christianity.

When we read in the bible all the sins that will take us to heaven and we repent of them we are actually working out our salvation because those sins will keep even Christians out of heaven.

As we do these things in our lives Christ is right there with us to help us overcome our sins and temptations.

Hebrews 4:15-16 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

We are tempted by the lusts that dwell in our hearts and minds =

James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

If in my heart I want to do the will of God by obeying his commandments then he will be there with me to do so. We know that a sin is a transgression of the law of Christ, so we are under a law that we are commanded to obey. When we obey that law we are doing the will of God. When we don't we sin. When we do the will of God our reward is heaven. When we don't do the will of God we don't get rewarded heaven.

Obeying the will of God is NOT "saving OURSELVES by our own efforts".

The prerequisite of forgiveness is repentance. Christ gave us an example -

Luke 17:3-4 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

I have heard many times that people think that Christ automatically forgives us every time we sin and don't need to repent nor seek forgiveness. That is so wrong.

Again, we are given an example -

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That word "IF" means that it is conditional. IF we confess our sins he will forgive us.

But as many times said before, the sins that will keep a Christian out of hell are the sins that he REFUSED to repent of or if he just walks away from God to go back into the world.

[larryt]

Because you have two sides of a coin here. All the scriptures that those who believe in OSAS are exactly true, but they are true to those whose hearts stay with God. If my heart is true to live Christianity and do his will giving my life and heart to him then all that you are saying is true.

The other side of the coin is that there are those who will turn their backs on God and walk with him no more and there will be those who will try to keep sins in their lives not wanting to repent of the yet want God also.

Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we are really in the faith.

Neither of these Christians will make it to heaven if they don't repent of their sins.

So what sins are they that were not forgiven at the cross?

God is not to weak to save anybody. God is willing to save anybody who is willing to come to him, but if I choose sin over God then he will have nothing to do with me.

The new man/the born again man/the new creation cannot sin. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Not only does he not practice sin but he CANNOT SIN.

Isaiah 59:1-3 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.

The only way God can keep me from falling is if I want him to. Everything relies on my faith in God. If I want to overcome my sins and live the life he has called mankind to live, then God is there for us all the way. But, we can't fool God. If I try to hide sin in my life not wanting to repent of it then I stand a chance of losing God and my hope of heaven.

If you think that you can hide sin then you never knew Him, you don't know God, at least the God of the bible. Maybe you have created a god after you own imagination. That is idolatry and many have I met that fall into that category.

Ephesians 5:3-5 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

"Once becometh saints" means after I have become a Christian. So, if as a Christian I have sins like these in my life then I have no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let's quote that verse correctly. it says: let it(sin) not be once named among you, as becometh saints.(since you are saints) ..... For you know(who know? We do) that "sinners" have no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ & God, i.e. they are not christians.

To many people say that if a Christian falls away then they were never a Christian any way. These scriptures say different as they are speaking about Christians.

That's what John says! 1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The writer of Hebrews is not giving a warning but a doctrinal statement about the comprehensiveness of the sacrifice of Christ. Christ already did everything and it would take a second crucified Christ to renew someone again after falling away -- an impossibility. By the way if you lose your salvation at any point then you cannot get it back. Where do you draw the line of lose of salvation? When you sin? At that point you cannot get it back.

Now, the only people that are able to taste of the heavenly and made partakers of the Holy Ghost are Christians. So, these verses are speaking of Christians who fall away and that if they should fall away it is impossible to renew them. Basically it is saying that if a Christian falls away and loses the Holy Spirit it is impossible for them to get it back because we receive the Holy Spirit when we are born again.

So, in conclusion, everything you say is correct, but only applies to those who are truly seeking.

Let's go back to Jude and see what he says about disobedient Christians -

Jude 1:11-13 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

The only people who are "twice dead" are Christians. I.e. The whole world of sinners is dead to God because of sin. Then we are made alive when we are born again. If a Christian loses the Holy Spirit they die again to God.

The second death is when the ungodly are thrown into the lake of fire.

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I already am raised with Christ. The second death has no/none/nada power over me.(Eph. 2:6)

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

LT

[patricia1]

Because you have two sides of a coin here. All the scriptures that those who believe in OSAS are exactly true, but they are true to those whose hearts stay with God. If my heart is true to live Christianity and do his will giving my life and heart to him then all that you are saying is true.

The other side of the coin is that there are those who will turn their backs on God and walk with him no more and there will be those who will try to keep sins in their lives not wanting to repent of the yet want God also.

Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we are really in the faith.

Neither of these Christians will make it to heaven if they don't repent of their sins.

So what sins are they that were not forgiven at the cross?

God is not to weak to save anybody. God is willing to save anybody who is willing to come to him, but if I choose sin over God then he will have nothing to do with me.

The new man/the born again man/the new creation cannot sin. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Not only does he not practice sin but he CANNOT SIN.

Isaiah 59:1-3 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.

The only way God can keep me from falling is if I want him to. Everything relies on my faith in God. If I want to overcome my sins and live the life he has called mankind to live, then God is there for us all the way. But, we can't fool God. If I try to hide sin in my life not wanting to repent of it then I stand a chance of losing God and my hope of heaven.

If you think that you can hide sin then you never knew Him, you don't know God, at least the God of the bible. Maybe you have created a god after you own imagination. That is idolatry and many have I met that fall into that category.

Ephesians 5:3-5 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

"Once becometh saints" means after I have become a Christian. So, if as a Christian I have sins like these in my life then I have no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let's quote that verse correctly. it says: let it(sin) not be once named among you, as becometh saints.(since you are saints) ..... For you know(who know? We do) that "sinners" have no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ & God, i.e. they are not christians.

To many people say that if a Christian falls away then they were never a Christian any way. These scriptures say different as they are speaking about Christians.

That's what John says! 1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The writer of Hebrews is not giving a warning but a doctrinal statement about the comprehensiveness of the sacrifice of Christ. Christ already did everything and it would take a second crucified Christ to renew someone again after falling away -- an impossibility. By the way if you lose your salvation at any point then you cannot get it back. Where do you draw the line of lose of salvation? When you sin? At that point you cannot get it back.

Now, the only people that are able to taste of the heavenly and made partakers of the Holy Ghost are Christians. So, these verses are speaking of Christians who fall away and that if they should fall away it is impossible to renew them. Basically it is saying that if a Christian falls away and loses the Holy Spirit it is impossible for them to get it back because we receive the Holy Spirit when we are born again.

So, in conclusion, everything you say is correct, but only applies to those who are truly seeking.

Let's go back to Jude and see what he says about disobedient Christians -

Jude 1:11-13 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

The only people who are "twice dead" are Christians. I.e. The whole world of sinners is dead to God because of sin. Then we are made alive when we are born again. If a Christian loses the Holy Spirit they die again to God.

The second death is when the ungodly are thrown into the lake of fire.

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I already am raised with Christ. The second death has no/none/nada power over me.(Eph. 2:6)

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

LT

We wrestle against the temptation to sin frequently and on levels we may not even knowI look at every human as Gods children. Whether they know it or not. We are so religiously stuck up on certain rules of the bible that congregants are not seeking assistance. We are to confess our sins one to another so we may be set free. Not so we can make someone feel worse, not so we can call the a backslider. I am not a pastor due to the lack of tenderness a pasters' heart is endowed with that I lack it is good. I fill in wherever whenever.

A young woman with two boys I would bring to church. She had her husband divorced and then locked up in jail 6yrs for assault and battery. She was fearful of this man getting out. I noticed her countence getting worse and worse finally I said Something is wrong and I am not letting you go.She fell into sexual sin. The mental torment, the fear someone will find out, The way she thought she may be judged, the humiliation she felt, the disappoinment that she HURT Jesus after all the father had done for her. She was heading for suicide!!! I stayed with her a couple of hours and then we prayed, I held her...Something her parents never even had done. The Love set her free. not mine but Jesus. If she had died where would she

[patricia1]

Because you have two sides of a coin here. All the scriptures that those who believe in OSAS are exactly true, but they are true to those whose hearts stay with God. If my heart is true to live Christianity and do his will giving my life and heart to him then all that you are saying is true.

The other side of the coin is that there are those who will turn their backs on God and walk with him no more and there will be those who will try to keep sins in their lives not wanting to repent of the yet want God also.

Paul tells us to examine ourselves to see if we are really in the faith.

Neither of these Christians will make it to heaven if they don't repent of their sins.

So what sins are they that were not forgiven at the cross?

God is not to weak to save anybody. God is willing to save anybody who is willing to come to him, but if I choose sin over God then he will have nothing to do with me.

The new man/the born again man/the new creation cannot sin. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Not only does he not practice sin but he CANNOT SIN.

Isaiah 59:1-3 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.

The only way God can keep me from falling is if I want him to. Everything relies on my faith in God. If I want to overcome my sins and live the life he has called mankind to live, then God is there for us all the way. But, we can't fool God. If I try to hide sin in my life not wanting to repent of it then I stand a chance of losing God and my hope of heaven.

If you think that you can hide sin then you never knew Him, you don't know God, at least the God of the bible. Maybe you have created a god after you own imagination. That is idolatry and many have I met that fall into that category.

Ephesians 5:3-5 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

"Once becometh saints" means after I have become a Christian. So, if as a Christian I have sins like these in my life then I have no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let's quote that verse correctly. it says: let it(sin) not be once named among you, as becometh saints.(since you are saints) ..... For you know(who know? We do) that "sinners" have no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ & God, i.e. they are not christians.

To many people say that if a Christian falls away then they were never a Christian any way. These scriptures say different as they are speaking about Christians.

That's what John says! 1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The writer of Hebrews is not giving a warning but a doctrinal statement about the comprehensiveness of the sacrifice of Christ. Christ already did everything and it would take a second crucified Christ to renew someone again after falling away -- an impossibility. By the way if you lose your salvation at any point then you cannot get it back. Where do you draw the line of lose of salvation? When you sin? At that point you cannot get it back.

Now, the only people that are able to taste of the heavenly and made partakers of the Holy Ghost are Christians. So, these verses are speaking of Christians who fall away and that if they should fall away it is impossible to renew them. Basically it is saying that if a Christian falls away and loses the Holy Spirit it is impossible for them to get it back because we receive the Holy Spirit when we are born again.

So, in conclusion, everything you say is correct, but only applies to those who are truly seeking.

Let's go back to Jude and see what he says about disobedient Christians -

Jude 1:11-13 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

The only people who are "twice dead" are Christians. I.e. The whole world of sinners is dead to God because of sin. Then we are made alive when we are born again. If a Christian loses the Holy Spirit they die again to God.

The second death is when the ungodly are thrown into the lake of fire.

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I already am raised with Christ. The second death has no/none/nada power over me.(Eph. 2:6)

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

LT

We wrestle against the temptation to sin frequently and on levels we may not even knowI look at every human as Gods children. Whether they know it or not. We are so religiously stuck up on certain rules of the bible that congregants are not seeking assistance. We are to confess our sins one to another so we may be set free. Not so we can make someone feel worse, not so we can call the a backslider. I am not a pastor due to the lack of tenderness a pasters' heart is endowed with that I lack it is good. I fill in wherever whenever.

A young woman with two boys I would bring to church. She had her husband divorced and then locked up in jail 6yrs for assault and battery. She was fearful of this man getting out. I noticed her countence getting worse and worse finally I said Something is wrong and I am not letting you go.She fell into sexual sin. The mental torment, the fear someone will find out, The way she thought she may be judged, the humiliation she felt, the disappoinment that she HURT Jesus after all the father had done for her. She was heading for suicide!!! I stayed with her a couple of hours and then we prayed, I held her...Something her parents never even had done. The Love set her free. not mine but Jesus. If she had died where would she

go.did judas go to heaven? David committed adultry, murdered. he was loved. ananias&Sapphira were killed for lying by God

[JesusFreak1986]

I belive once you are saved, you will always be saved.