Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"

[TomPJr]

Thaddaeus, cardcaptor

As I read back on you post it has become clear that you deny Christ to be God could it be that you read the NWT. If so I see your hang up in the reconstruction of John.

John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. (NWT)

Should read:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So I have not been talking with Christians but with Witnesses, correct?

Because God shed His Blood

JB

You are not correct. I am not a Jehovah's Witness. They read from their own translation of the bible and many books. I was raised on the King James version of the bible. If you will see each of the verses I use they are KJV. I am a member of the Church of Christ (NOT Latter Day Saints).

And to answer your question to John 1:1, Christ is a God.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This is God talking to Christ. Read from verse 1.

In the King James version it says that Christ shed his blood. He prayed in the garden to GOD, not himself, before he was taken, and prayed on the cross asking why God had forsaken him. When he was baptized by John God spoke from heaven saying, "This is my son". It is not hard to understand that they are both two separate Gods with the same purpose.

Look in Genesis -

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Who was the us here? The angels didn't create anything.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:14-16 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Christ is not God, but the image of God in that they are the same in everything. Just like saying that your son is the image of you in looks and personality.

Christ created all things. In Genesis, the "US" us God, Christ, and the HS. All three had their parts in the creation and have been around since before that.

Christ chose to leave heaven to come here to give his life for his creation.

Philippians 2:6-10 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

When you read these verses you can see that they are two separate Gods.

you got it!

the confusion comes with our English translation of God.

We use the same word(God) when referencing the Father, the son, and both together.

In the original Hebrew, and Greek, there is a seperate word for each. Elohim, for example, is the original word in Genesis when it talks about the creation. The suffix "him" on the end of "Elohim" denotes plurality. Thus meaning more than one God, and why they said let us make man in our image.

I wont say anymore now....like I said you GOT IT

The problem does not come at all from the English translation. There is no problem with the Biblical revelation of the two aspects: Unity in plurality, and plurality in unity.

There is but one God, not many.

That is your opinion, which you are entitled to, but not biblical truth.

God is not the author of confusion...

There is the Father, and there is the Son. Both are God....just as my father and I are both human.

They are one in unity, and in mindset....not the same person.

Threy are one in nature and essence. This is the biblical truth....Unless you are pagan.

The truth doesn't change regardless....

and NO, I am not pagan.

Show me where it says they are the same entity.

there are tons of texts that describe them as being different entities.

They are the same in nature, mindset, goal, etc... but, are two different persons.

Why is that so hard to understand....oh yeah, because that is what we've been taught all our lives.

If what you say is true, then Jesus prayed to himself....and he cried out to himself on the cross....

also the creation proclaims plurality.

but, go ahead and read your translation into it....

It really probably doesn't matter. The truth is that Jesus is God, and we must believe in him, and confess and repent.

peace,

Tom

Why so angry?

According to you, Jesus is a god, not the God. That would make you a polytheist. No different, really, than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - Mormons - who are also essentially pagans.

I'm not angry at all.

Sorry if my words apear that way...I just stated my opinion.

to set you straight, I am quite different from mormons, and Latter day saints. Just because their may be a similar belief in one area, doesn't make us similar.

we all have some similar beliefs, don't we?

the topic at hand is "once saved always saved" any way.

I really don't think that our difference in opinion of whether Jesus and the Father are the same entity or not is a crucial issue. I'm sure we can agree that we can't obtain salvation without Jesus. Right?

Tom

I think it is important. I believe that Jesus as the one God is a crucial matter of the orthodox faith.

Okay I'm not going to debate that now.

what does that have to do with "once saved always saved", though?

[freedfromsin]

no one has ever lost their salavtion.

Edited January 4, 2007 by freedfromsin

[TomPJr]

no one has ever lost their salavtion.

How do you know that?

What if someone is saved once, choosed to repent and ask forgiveness, but later backslides and never comes back to Christ? Will they still be saved? I don't think so.

We aren't locked into salvation.....we still have free will. God will not let go of us, but we can let go of him and harden our hearts not to hear the Holyspirit convicting us of our sin.

We still need to confess and repent, right?

[Floatingaxe]

no one has ever lost their salavtion.

Ever heard of apostates? They lose big time.

[TomPJr]

no one has ever lost their salavtion.

Ever heard of apostates? They lose big time.

[freedfromsin]

Actually I can know. The bible teaches so. however there is a bigger problem here and that is understanding repentance. Repentance is not simply turning from sin, but it is turning to God with all our hearts. Jeremiah 29:13. many come but not with alll thheir hearts and they get something short of true salvation. It is a state that we enter into. Also repenntance is not something that we do in a moment and take back some time later. It is a repentance not repented of. (2Corinthians 7:10)yes many come and look like believers for a season and then leave, but according to scripture they were never saved to begin with.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Youmentioned free will. For a true believer his free will is to get saved and stay saved. The problem is that we cannot keep ourselves saved. So God has devised a plan where we can never lose it. This is the difference between the creation and the new birth. Adam could falll, but the saved are saved for eternity. We come to Him as beggers and He makes us sons by putting His Holy Spirit in us and scripture says that this is what keeps us from sinning.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So you see here we have two simple verses that lock all doors from anyone losing their salvation. If they come and profess and then leave they were never saved. if they come and are real then the Spirit remains so that they cannot return to sin. Door closed which is what i need and every other believer because there is no hope of me or anyone saving themselves or keeping themselves saved.

no one has ever lost their salavtion.

How do you know that?

What if someone is saved once, choosed to repent and ask forgiveness, but later backslides and never comes back to Christ? Will they still be saved? I don't think so.

We aren't locked into salvation.....we still have free will. God will not let go of us, but we can let go of him and harden our hearts not to hear the Holyspirit convicting us of our sin.

We still need to confess and repent, right?

[firehill]

no one has ever lost their salavtion.

Notice the simplicity of this Truth. 'No one has ever lost THIER SALVATION. Duh.

Way to go, ff.

[TomPJr]

Actually I can know. The bible teaches so. however there is a bigger problem here and that is understanding repentance. Repentance is not simply turning from sin, but it is turning to God with all our hearts. Jeremiah 29:13. many come but not with alll thheir hearts and they get something short of true salvation. It is a state that we enter into. Also repenntance is not something that we do in a moment and take back some time later. It is a repentance not repented of. (2Corinthians 7:10)yes many come and look like believers for a season and then leave, but according to scripture they were never saved to begin with.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Youmentioned free will. For a true believer his free will is to get saved and stay saved. The problem is that we cannot keep ourselves saved. So God has devised a plan where we can never lose it. This is the difference between the creation and the new birth. Adam could falll, but the saved are saved for eternity. We come to Him as beggers and He makes us sons by putting His Holy Spirit in us and scripture says that this is what keeps us from sinning.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So you see here we have two simple verses that lock all doors from anyone losing their salvation. If they come and profess and then leave they were never saved. if they come and are real then the Spirit remains so that they cannot return to sin. Door closed which is what i need and every other believer because there is no hope of me or anyone saving themselves or keeping themselves saved.

no one has ever lost their salavtion.

How do you know that?

What if someone is saved once, choosed to repent and ask forgiveness, but later backslides and never comes back to Christ? Will they still be saved? I don't think so.

We aren't locked into salvation.....we still have free will. God will not let go of us, but we can let go of him and harden our hearts not to hear the Holyspirit convicting us of our sin.

We still need to confess and repent, right?

I thought you would say that.....Good points.

I will have to further study those texts.

I guess that if one is finding themselves stuck in sin, by your statements, then they are not really saved, even if they profess they are.

[firehill]

no one has ever lost their salavtion.

One cannot lose their salavation, otherwise it was never thier salvation but rather something else like say 'their salvation that once was.

[freedfromsin]

Hello Tom,

You asked;

"I guess that if one is finding themselves stuck in sin, by your statements, then they are not really saved, even if they profess they are."

The terms "stuck in sin" can carry a lot of meanings, however let me deal with it a little. First let's accept scripture;

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The Greek is dealing with the practice of sin. In other words it is the practice of the person to sin. It is no surprise to see or hear them sin. They even do it with joy many times. A child of God never gets joy out of their sin. Yes is may bring momentary pleasure, but not joy. That is lost with sin and only returns with confession and forsaking the sin. The person who claims salvation but is realy is because of their practice. That does not mean that they have to be the worst person on earth or sin great sins. it simply means that their practice is to sin rather then not sin. It is not a 50/40 thing either. I run into people who profess to be saved and yet they daily practice prophanity. I am not shocked and neither are they. The reason is that they practice it and never got saved. True bellevers are convicted even for the smallest of sins and they are simply not able to practice them. Yes we may fail in a given moment on any given day, but we do not practice it. It is not our habbit to sin. The reason is stated;

1John 3 for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

Now let me deal with this a little further. Let's say that we have a real believer. And like most of us they have to deal with some very difficult sins. This person may have a particular sin in their life that they are truly striving to overcome. They hate the sin, they confess it should it happen, and they will have victory in time. But keep in mind even in this it is not somethig that they practice. It is simply something that they have not learned how to overcome in every situation. The main thing is that they are confessing it and striving to overcome it. That is the difference between a person who sins by practice and is lost and a person who sins by ocassion and is saved.

I think that one of the biggest problems that we have today is false doctriine. The church has manufactured doctrine that overides the word of God and one that comes to mind is the doctrine of backsliding. To most peoples surprised there is no such thing for the believer. No place in the New testament is anyone called a backslider. The Old testamment uses the term but never for an individual. only israel as a nation is the term used and in those times Israel as a nation is lost. I deal with this a little more on my web page.

How many times have we heard someone claim to be a backslider. The sad thing is that they probably are from a biblical standpoint. They are lost if they return to sin. I have had people tell me "well I am a Christian but I am not following the Lord right now. The truth is if they are not following the Lord they are not saved nor were they ever. The bible says this;

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

This passage in the Greek is of a sort where it is saying that once this starts, at salvation, it never ends. They start to follow and never stop. Even if they sin they confess it with regret and strive not to do it again. This is one that is being led of the Spirit. Our daily minute by minute life is one thta is led by the Spirit. Yes we will fail at times, but it is not our practice.