Neopatriarch Posted October 13, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 167 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 13, 2006 Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. Jhn 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. So those that are never snatched out of Jesus hand are those that FOLLOW HIM. We dont just believe and praise and pray and sit back... we must follow Him. Read the Sermon on the Mount (Matt ch 5, 6, 7). If we dont Follow Jesus, then whether we are Born Again or not, Jesus will be saying this to us: That's a different take. I hadn't thought of the "follow him" part as a condition for salvation. Rather, I thought it was just a statement of fact. Jesus' sheep follow him. Nonsheep do not follow him. So, it doesn't make sense to think of a saved person not following Jesus, because following Jesus is what saved people do. Matthew 7:21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted October 13, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 13, 2006 No, I do not believe in OSAS as Calvin preached and as Baptists, Reform, etc teach. Calvin never taught OSAS. He taught Perseverence of the Saints. That is a very different doctrine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solar Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 This topic has almost become a worn out topic. I have yet to see anyone on here change their view on the subject. We all just dig in and throw out the same arguments again and again. I do not think you can look through the archives and find one thread on this topic that actually went somewhere. Who knows, maybe this will be the one. There are basically 3 views on OSAS. I don't necessarily agree with you on your point of view here. I have been drastically and personal affected with this topic here. I think that I have grown in my faith as a result of this topic. I think I have a different take on it now that I have not heard of others having to my knowledge. I have wanted to talk more about this subject but want bring it up on the boards because I don't think I can handle the adversity for personal reasons surrounding the subject by all the people who would get involved in the discussion and all of the issues that would be brought into it trying to make their points of view known. But I have wanted to discuss it for some time now but in a mature setting so that I could be edified and grow instead of the opposite happening to me. and there may be a 4th view. oc I believe that if a person is really saved they will stay saved and wont do things that would cause them to lose there salvation as some would imply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaisum Posted October 13, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 16 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/29/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 13, 2006 Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. Jhn 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. So those that are never snatched out of Jesus hand are those that FOLLOW HIM. We dont just believe and praise and pray and sit back... we must follow Him. Read the Sermon on the Mount (Matt ch 5, 6, 7). If we dont Follow Jesus, then whether we are Born Again or not, Jesus will be saying this to us: That's a different take. I hadn't thought of the "follow him" part as a condition for salvation. Rather, I thought it was just a statement of fact. Jesus' sheep follow him. Nonsheep do not follow him. So, it doesn't make sense to think of a saved person not following Jesus, because following Jesus is what saved people do. Matthew 7:21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neopatriarch Posted October 14, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 167 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 14, 2006 I believe Following Jesus is a condition for Salvation. Thanks for being forthright about it. Jesus spoke a simple Parable the explained following Him was essential for salvation. Parable of the Sower Luke ch 8.13: the seeds that fell on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in times of testing they fall away. Now Jesus is quite simplt telling us that the ones who received HIs word with Joy are genuine, born-again conersions. They are happy, they have probably made a couple changes to their life. Jesus does not say they are 'false-conversions'. He simply says that in true times of testing, they fell-away. These 'types' of believers are either so overcome by the riches and temptations of this world, or probably develop into judgemental hypocritcal Christians, that they fall-away from following Jesus. True, Jesus does not say they are 'false-conversions', but I could still accept that understanding of it. Jesus also doesn't say they have saving faith. In fact, the point of the parable of the soils is about maturity. Mature believers produce fruit. How have you drawn the conclusion from this text that those who have received his word with joy are genuine, born-again Christians? Maybe these people were presented the gospel and they heard only the good parts that they wanted to hear and consequently failed to get the full message or a good understanding of it. In this case they wouldn't be Christians, although they might profess it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddaeus Posted October 14, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 375 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/21/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 14, 2006 Neopatriarch, True, Jesus does not say they are 'false-conversions', but I could still accept that understanding of it. Jesus also doesn't say they have saving faith. In fact, the point of the parable of the soils is about maturity. Mature believers produce fruit. Not really, it is about faith period. However, lets take your understanding and run with it. If it is about maturity, then how does a Christian believer arrive at maturity? With your understanding a believer, and infant believer is still an unbeliever, outside of the Body of Christ until that point at which he becomes mature. Then that begs the question, what is the mark of a mature christian? In this case they wouldn't be Christians, although they might profess it. But by whos definition. Yours or scripture. If one believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth, he is saved. If one professes and confesses for years but then never matures, does it mean he was really never a christian, thus not ever saved? Begs another question, only mature christians are saved? One only needs to look at the Cross and the thief. Another question, if he was mature, then what makes a mature christain? If you are not a believer, what are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted October 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted October 14, 2006 The "soils" are heart conditions and the "seed" is the Word of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted October 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted October 14, 2006 I think it is pretty clear that only the good soil is a true believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted October 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted October 14, 2006 I believe that if we have true faith we are saved and of course have nothing to fear ever. But come on we have all seen many people who say all of the right words and really get into church and faith for a short period of time, then totally reject it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted October 14, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted October 14, 2006 The "good soil" is the well-prepared heart, which receives the Word of God and the "seed" grows. The "good soil" becomes the strong believer, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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